BFG:R Vote 10: Imperial Fleet List Admirals

[afterimagedan]

All non-Battlefleet Cadia Imperial Fleet Lists:

Ld 8 50pts
Ld 9 75pts
Ld 10 100pts

+1 Reroll 25pts
+2 Reroll 50pts
+3 Reroll 75pts

Secondary Commanders 0-3
30pts +1Ld
+1 Reroll 15pts

Battlefleet Cadia:
Veteran Captain 0-5
15pts +1LD
+1 Reroll 15pts

[afterimagedan]

At this current moment, there is one post against passing this. Please speak up so we can hear you out!

[Dan_Lee]

I have to ask, why does the current IN leadership system need changing. I've never had a problem with it.

[ThaneAquilon]

I'm the dissenter!

Really, I gave my opinion in the other thread. I think they should be +1, +2 etc instead of static values. Despite what we can infer from the BBB that horizon's post on the other thread detailed, I don't think we should ever, EVER pay for what could easily become a downgrade (more likely for chaos, I know). The other thing is the Emperor. A small difference, I guess, but given it's popularity...

If a fleet has an Emperor battleship in it, the fleet commander is going to be on it. But with the Emperor's special rules, that will more often than not end up being on par, or a downgrade! Leading you to place your commander on another ship.

That's my biggest problem, but I also think subs should also be 25pts instead of 30, and RRs should be 25pts, for two reasons. 1, 50 fits into fleets generally more easily than 45. 2, the RR itself may be limited, but the tactical bonus it gives to your fleet reroll(s) is huge! Now you can use it more aggressively because your sub in your dictator has got that squadron covered for rerolls.

As an aside, I also agree with Talos that the basic leader at some point values should be free (E.g. 50pt leader at 750, 75pt leader at 1500 etc), with puchaseable ld and RR upgrades...I play with plastic ships, not imginary people on the ships. Leave that for DnD/Rogue Trader.

[horizon]

Hey,

Chaos = warmaster on most expensive, Lord where you want. Easy.

IN = admiral wherever you want

How would the Emperor be downgraded by a fleet admiral.

Most common: Ld8 fleet admiral on Emperor.
Is in game Ld8 + 1 from Emperor = Ld9
Is lots of time Ld8 + 1Emperor + 1enemy SO = max10.

Picking the Solar Admiral on Emperor is overkill (waste).

If the Emperor rolls a 6 and gets Ld9 on its own I could place the admiral on another ship. But fluffwise I place it on the Emperor anyway, but it isn't a must.

[ThaneAquilon]

The rules clarifications that I've seen are that you role Ld (say , then add 1 (so 9 now) then place admirals, superceeding the original leadership with ld8.

So the above, and warmasters forced to be on the most expensive ship, thus quite possibly being a downgraded ld is the reason for my vote. I don't want to pay 50pts for the downgrade. I am unsatified with the version of the rules we're voting on, but the vote will decide (unless anyone agrees with me ). I'm willing to compromise on this though, just like everyone else on everything else. I may ask Talos for a house rule...

[Talos]

Despite voting to finalize, I do agree with Thane on this subject. As has been mentioned to me several times since my debut on these forums, the magic IN ordnance number is 8 (at 1500pts). Less is dangerously close to being overwhelmed utterly by any high ordnance fleet, and more is useful but unlikely to really compete on the offence versus the high ordnance fleets. So at 1500pts its likely the emperor is your only carrier, and sticking the admiral on to front-line gunships is likely to end up handing your opponent 50 VP as an extra bonus to engaging the ships he already has to engage.

Again, it is a shame we have to compromise, but unfortunately all of your opinions are worth as much as mine, despite what I may think ...

[horizon]

The rules clarifications that I've seen are that you role Ld (say , then add 1 (so 9 now) then place admirals, superceeding the original leadership with ld8.

So the above, and warmasters forced to be on the most expensive ship, thus quite possibly being a downgraded ld is the reason for my vote. I don't want to pay 50pts for the downgrade. I am unsatified with the version of the rules we're voting on, but the vote will decide (unless anyone agrees with me ). I'm willing to compromise on this though, just like everyone else on everything else. I may ask Talos for a house rule...

Hi,
on the warmaster : just do not roll the Ld dice for the most expensive vessel.

IN: vessel bonus is aways added at the end. Thus the Emperor adds it +1to the admiral as well.

[ThaneAquilon]

Two things, 1 we need to roll leadership, as bridge smashed kills the leader and the ship reverts to it's original ld, before taking the -3, or so was my assumption (and the way we play).2 I was always under the impression that any ship that modified leadership (Emp, Tau missile boat, Vengeance? Rampart (though it can't have a leader)) always moddified the hard leadership, which is also how we played it. I guess we can try this other way from here on out, but the way the rules are worded leaves me feeling like this is RAI over RAW (which I'm okay with )

[afterimagedan]

I am starting to see why the set leadership is a good thing. Here's why. Chaos could roll a 1 on the desolator and have taken the +1 warmaster. Now, your flagship is Ld 7. So, since IN do not have the change to have a downgrade, they always have AT LEAST Ld 8.

[horizon]

Where is it written that the Emperor bonus of +1 does not add to the Admiral?
It says that it gives +1 to its Leadership rating.
Rules as written:
+1 to rolled Ld
and
+1 to admiral Ld.

How do you come by the idea the Emperor does not give +1 to the admiral? It is a ship bonus.

So if the Emperor had rolled Ld7 with an Ld8 admiral.
It has 8+1 in the game.
When the bridge is smashed it is 7 -3 + 1. The ship sensors still work.

[Talos]

I agree that this makes sense, but where is it written that the ship bonus gets applied last? It's not that I don't believe you, it's that like Thane I have never seen this written anywhere. Could you tell us where this is stated if possible? Not to derail the conversation.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I dont think it does but if your saying that modifiers only affect base leadership which is then superseded by the fleet commanders leadership maybe they are worth their ridiculous pricing...

[horizon]

I agree that this makes sense, but where is it written that the ship bonus gets applied last? It's not that I don't believe you, it's that like Thane I have never seen this written anywhere. Could you tell us where this is stated if possible? Not to derail the conversation.

Where is it stated the ship bonus is added to the base value? Nowhere.
So you follow the sense of logic: it is a ship bonus, which is always applied.

I never read the ruling otherwise.