Work in Progress: Warmaster International Playtestweekend

[Aldhick]

VISIBILITY OF 4 CM IN WOODS/BUILDINGS
I support this change.

CAVALRY AND MONSTERS CAN ENTER WOODS/BUILDINGS
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  One of the problems with WMF, I think, is that cavalry have been overly powerful.  Allowing them into previously denied terrain makes them stronger by letting them become, in effect, infantry based on a narrow edge.

In his first post Dave is mentioning just terrain like a willage or town, which is perfectly ok with me. If this should apply on forrests aswell, I'd be not so sure about it...

MULTIPLE MOVES IF CHARACTERS ROLL VERY LOW DICE
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  This additional layer of complexity was explained as a way of speeding up the start of the game.  In that regard, it seemed to be a complex solution in search of a simple problem.  If there is a difficulty with slow starts, then use the scouting rules to speed the placing of armies and then simply adopt a higher tempo of play (aka “get on with it” or “do; don’t discuss”).

The main point on this issue that I've been experiencing is that it happens too often, that you have to leave half of your units on the spot where you deployed them, because you weren't able to issue enought orders. And it really sucks and slows down the game. So the solution should be to make a bigger chance to issue more ordes at the start, so more units can move, not to make one unit/brigade to be able to run acorss the table due to lucky roll. IMO some simple change like - start to count further orders penalty from third order on (not from the second) in the first turn - would suffice.    So the point should be "more orders", not "more moves on one order". 

I really dig all the other stuff.

[andys]

Do you intend to update the 2009 Trial Armies compendium?

[Ole]

ROADS. 
I think a bonus should apply but I would suggest it is simplified.  A unit in column which starts on a road, moves only along a road, and ends in column on a road is +1 to order.

Sounds Fun, and it's a chance to see more roads on the field of glory.

SUPPORT
I very strongly support the counting of support before removal of casualties.  This would be number 1 in my list of things to fix in WMF.

As we play the core ruleset WMA we always played it this way and never had any problems.

FLANKS
I have never liked ‘pinning’ with units going from frontal positions to envelope flanks, but I accept that is a minority position.  Therefore I would welcome clarification of what constitutes a ‘flanking’ position for an ordinary charge.

I would like to hear more about it when Lex is ready.

60CM CHARGE FOR FLYERS
I very strongly support this change.

Flyers are in need of a Lot of clarification, since the rulebook is quite vage about it.
We used this as a houserule with no probelms for some time now.

VISIBILITY OF 4 CM IN WOODS/BUILDINGS
I support this change.

Right now it's 1cm.
WMA is 2cm.
Where is the Need of 4cm?

I would like to Test border 2cm inside 4cm.

IN/OUT OF TERRAIN
Part of unit in terrain, so whole unit gets defensive benefits.  Attackers get charging benefits against those stands that are not wholly in the terrain.  I support this as it gives a third dimension to what has been a very two-dimensional terrain system.

The rules as they are now have the benifit that you might stand in iregulare fotmation. With the new rule you might get supporting Stands.

CAVALRY AND MONSTERS CAN ENTER WOODS/BUILDINGS
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  One of the problems with WMF, I think, is that cavalry have been overly powerful.  Allowing them into previously denied terrain makes them stronger by letting them become, in effect, infantry based on a narrow edge.

please don't make monsters or cavalry any stronger.

ANYONE CAN PURSUE FOR ONE ROUND IF FLANKING
This was good and helped to rebalance infantry versus cavalry.  I would strongly support this change.

That's sounds like a good way to do it.

MULTIPLE MOVES IF CHARACTERS ROLL VERY LOW DICE
I would not support this change.  In fact, I strongly disagree with it.  This additional layer of complexity was explained as a way of speeding up the start of the game.  In that regard, it seemed to be a complex solution in search of a simple problem.  If there is a difficulty with slow starts, then use the scouting rules to speed the placing of armies and then simply adopt a higher tempo of play (aka “get on with it” or “do; don’t discuss”).

That would stay a houserule. Is not the hole piont of the entire order system to make a diferrence between good and better commanders? If you really have a problem with it you can play highelves don't you.

Just my 2cents

Ole

[jchaos79]

I did not came to the warmaster internation playestest, so I do not have all the information and feeling to make a good judge, but I will put my first impression here (just my opinion):

- Roads: OK, I usually use it as houserule. Strongly agree

- Support: Not a really fan of changing it. But I could adapt my games to this way of playing.

-Flanks: Do not understand well the change. I suppose Corner to corner fight if the charge goes from the frontal position and all the enemy's frontal is fighting. Not really fan of changing it.

-60 cm charge flyers: OK for me

- Visibility of 4cm: did it make significative changes?  I could support this change.

- Terrain: strongly agree

- Cavalry and monster entering the woods: strongly disagree

- Anyone can purse for flank: strongly disagree

- Multiple moves in one dice roll: strongly disagree

[Heiko]

Following the discussion, I have the impression, we discuss partially different things we have done in a different way last weekend. So, I wrote down, how I understood the "new tested rules".  I´ve added also some examples to make clear, how I understood it.

Minimum of attacks: Should be always be at least one (despite the fact, the unit has none because of some modifiers (terror / flanked / confusion...)

Rules about the area
-   Units, partially (at least one complete stand) inside of a “special area” can claim the defended status for all stands of the unit. On the other hand: A other unit, which attacks this "defended" unit gets all the bonus it has to get (Monster charge, charge ...)
-   Builded up area (villages and so on) – all types of units can enter it. You can see four centimeter inside (from outside), through (from inside), outside (from inside). Pursuing is for all types of units possible (eg. Infantry can pursue cavalry), also when the pursuing unit doesn´t stand in the flank of the pursued unit (see the “flanking rule”).  Infantry counts defended, attackers never get the attack-bonus. No other bonuses apply (pursuing the retreating unit and so on).
-   Forest -   . You can see four centimeter inside (from outside), through (from inside), outside (from inside).
-   Streets – When a unit starts with at least one complete stand on a street and gets a successful order: When the unit ends up the movement with the same conditions on the street, a 1 is subtracted from the following command. Other modifiers apply.

Flyers
-   They can move 100 Zentimeter, they can charge 60 Zentimeter
Flanking
-   If a unit is charged in the flank, the flanking unit can pursue the attacked unit for one round. So – cavalry can pursue flyers and so on.
-   We support the 45 Degree rule, we don´t support the rule of the book.

My vote about all of these things: - I would like to get them!!!!

and last but not least:

Chain of command
General: If used in the way we have done it, it changes too much. It is absolutely enjoyable, but it´s not the game we did before. If the rule is used, this should be changed:
-   It is impossible, to charge on the second or third move.
-   The rules should be changed massively. (e.g. three moves on a 2, two moves on a 3)

[Alexander]

As far as my limited experience is any worth, my thoughts during the playtest weekend:

- Roads: OK

- Support: A must change. It enhances the otherwise weak infantry vs cavalry. Also the feeling is much better when doing this.

-Flanks: Either way is ok for me.

-60 cm charge flyers: good rule

- Visibility of 4cm: I don't mind either way

- Terrain: agree

- Cavalry and monster entering the woods: disagree

- Anyone can pursue for flank: agree, You will have to think twice attacking infantry with cavalry or charging cavalry with flying units without their flanks coverd.


- Multiple moves in one dice roll:  Not really a fan of it. Alternative would be one free move (without command check) in the first movementphase or maybe  a +1 modifier to command check in the first turn and first movement (max command of 10). You could say that the commander gave a speach and the  infantry was pumped to get to grips with the enemy.

edit: maybe in the first turn and first order for that brigade/unit you can reroll 1 command die. eg. high elf rolls 11 (6+5). High elf can rerol the 6 for only that first order. Then you keep the "the better the general the better the order possibility" but the lower commanders (skaven, orcs etc) still have a chance moving the units out of the deploymentzone with a lucky reroll. If both dice are high it will still need a lucky reroll to move the unit but it is at least a chance.

- Scouting rule: good

[wmchaos2000]

Roads:
we have tried this once and it worked out well, but mostly the terrain feature "road" isn`t available, so no big impact (=+1)

Support:
a bit trickier, in one way one could argue "how can a already dead stand support another?" and on the other hand "to represent the bulg of the unit engaged in combat". But i will go with the first. That is the realistic and logical answer. After all, a unit seeing it´s foes lines falling will get extra energy. So, please do not change this due to "game-mechanic" issues. That wouldn´t be in-the-name-of-the-game. (=-1)
But in-game we need another way to "help" inf, see #below#

Flank:
need a clarification here...?

Flyers:
they can fly 100cm, no need to change that, it is relative to inf and cav movement, but why not limit their range of LoS? see #below#

Visibility:
in woods, it is very hard to see more then 10-12m, ( a member of swedish wm community actually did an irl test and none of his testies could see the blazing orangeè(?) helmet/jacket 9m into the undergrowth...) so don´t mess with this.  One inf stands width is perfect. (=-1)
a side-reflection, what is LoS? What the unit actually and clearly sees? Or what the commanders of the army "know" is there? hopefully charging units won´t rely on commanders "sight" more then on there own actual seeing-the-enemy in clear view when deciding to risk their lives charging in or not.

Terrain:
if a charged inf unit have parts outside where it can actually find defence, it will be in the open, no "rule-mechanic" will convince me here. may have something #below# (=-1)

Cavalry+Monster in woods:
no (=-1)

Pursue on flanks:
a rule-text-idea on this one.
"if a unit, any unit, finds itselfs in base-to-base contact after the retreating enemy unit/stands have moved, that stand can always participate in the next combat round, unless the unit actually is allowed to pursue or chooses to hold or fall back as normal. If it chooses to fall back, and isn´t allowed to pursue, it can´t move over the original "imagined" battle-line (WMA). (+1, not play-tested)

Multiple moves:
NO!!
that is a abomination!
if the problem is: "not many/all units/brigades get to move out of the deployment zone" adress that.
an idea i have been thinking about, but not tested, is, let the first order a unit/brigade gets where there is no command penalties what-so-ever get +1 on the roll. which then also would/could apply to orders in later turns where there aswell is no pre-penalties at all. =first order (=+1)

Scouting:
do not really see the need of this. (=-1)

#below#
Support: add a battle standard upgrade for one character in all armies, and if that character is within 20cm of the unit add +1CR/supporting stand.
Flyers: use combat field conditions. weather and sunlight giving strict conditions on LoS during the following turn. we have used this for years and it has always limited charge distance for flyers in turn 1-2 and sometimes limited LoS for artillery in turn 1-2.
Terrain: there is plenty of terrain rules still to be developed, light/heavy woods, rough terrain, march vs river, swamp vs lake and so on.

May have missed some things here, but feel free to comment.

My 50 öre.

Best regards /ola

[Toon]

I am so, so sad I could not attend  Could you guys maybe post some pictures?

[Lex]

already some out of various Warmaster FB groups, but I will see what I can do here...

how did exams go?

[Aquahog]

Also, without having tried them, here are my comments.


ROADS. 

I see no problem with this.

SUPPORT

This will make infantry in a defended position with support nigh unbreakable. Not a bad thing I guess.


FLANKS

?

60CM CHARGE FOR FLYERS

As Ola mentioned, we have solved this differently, but either way works for me.

VISIBILITY OF 4 CM IN WOODS/BUILDINGS

No thanks. See Ola's comment on irl test.

IN/OUT OF TERRAIN
Part of unit in terrain, so whole unit gets defensive benefits.  Attackers get charging benefits against those stands that are not wholly in the terrain.  I support this as it gives a third dimension to what has been a very two-dimensional terrain system.

Actually, this sounds like the way we play it already?

CAVALRY AND MONSTERS CAN ENTER WOODS/BUILDINGS

Gods no! Nothing good can come from it. Possibly monsters from a fluff perspective.

ANYONE CAN PURSUE FOR ONE ROUND IF FLANKING

Sounds good to me.

MULTIPLE MOVES IF CHARACTERS ROLL VERY LOW DICE

I agree with the "complicated solution to a simple problem mindset". I prefer either Ola's idea or simply an overall +1 to all command rolls turn 1. If flyers can't charge obviously...

[Stormwind]

In Blitzkrieg Commander, the "Snake Eyes" double-one bonus can really change a battle or allow some stunning flank maneavours.

[jchaos79]

Yep, cold war commander has this rule also.

I like the idea of double 1 (snake eyes) allow an extra order. It is not the same game, because in CoC/BKC shooting is one order. But this is a touch of colour because is not very probable obtain double 1 and could work in fantasy anyway.

The idea I did not like is moving toward Hail Caesar system of orders... if you get 2 then X order, if you get 3 then X-1 orders... and so on.

[Jurisch]

Hi,

Commands Orders:

I like the idea of adding a bonus to the first moves. What I would recommend, that this bonus is only possible in Turn 1 of the combat to reflect that the conmanders have received a plan in front of the battle. In turn 2 the commands will work in the usual way. Benefit: Troops will get more soon in touch.

Regards,

Jürgen

[wmchaos2000]

+1

Works well with the idea that all units knows the original battle-plan, but after the first order and the following movement is done, the units, in general, don´t really see what the next step should be and therefore normal command penalties apply on all orders after the first.

[Aldhick]

+1

Works well with the idea that all units knows the original battle-plan, but after the first order and the following movement is done, the units, in general, don´t really see what the next step should be and therefore normal command penalties apply on all orders after the first.

This reminds me of one good old proverb saying that "no plan survives contact with the enemy" :-)