August 01, 2024, 07:13:40 AM

Author Topic: BFG:R Chaos  (Read 65589 times)

Offline radu lykan

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 94
    • Loc: northants, uk
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #240 on: June 11, 2013, 11:57:57 AM »
if they could stay in it would be better for me as i have one of each with a plan for a campaign involving them. a limit of 1 of each type per fleet or 1 of any type per 500 or 750 would work, cutting out the chances of them being spammed but not giving those who have built them the finger? :)

Offline Armiger84

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 131
    • Loc: Boston, MA
    • De Bellis Futuris
BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #241 on: June 11, 2013, 01:47:36 PM »
If the major issue is demon-bombing with light cruisers, then I wouldn't have a problem restricting demon ships to 8+ hull points.  It would basically put a 40pt virtual tax on a demon ship compared to a Heretic or an Unbeliever, but it would also make sitting phased in the middle of someone's fleet a more expensive & wasteful proposition.

If the Heretic seems a little unimaginative as a CL, it could get swapped for the Siluria, whose lore makes it an ancient light cruiser design. Of course, that gets Chaos an even cheaper light cruiser, but I could see letting people use their Heretics as Silurias, and it would keep the reserves bleed going from the Havoc frigate.

Under the updated fleet list costs, 3 Dauntless and an Emperor clocks in at 695pts, 3 Unbelievers and a Despoiler would cost 765pts, 3 Unbelievers and a Desecrator would be 740pts, and a Desolator/Relictor + 3 comes in at 675pts.  Of the three builds that could squeak in under the 750pt cap, none of them have the threat projection that the Emperor could bring to the table (ok, maybe the Relictor, but in a different way), so I'm not sure the option to go top-heavy is, comparatively at least, that much of an issue (not that I'd want to face 3CLs + an Emperor either, and a raiding fleet player would probably love it less).  Of course, swapping out the Heretic for the Siluria would make a Despoiler bomb raid fleet viable, so be careful what you wish for.  These kinda of fleet comps make me really want Horizon's mandatory escort-to-capital ship ratio, even if its just 1:1 for cruisers and 2:1 for battleships, since that would kill the "battleship in a raid" option.
My modelling blog:  http://armiger84.blogspot.com

Offline horizon

  • Moderator
  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4197
  • Destiny Infinity Eternity
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #242 on: June 11, 2013, 08:26:35 PM »
These kinda of fleet comps make me really want Horizon's mandatory escort-to-capital ship ratio, even if its just 1:1 for cruisers and 2:1 for battleships, since that would kill the "battleship in a raid" option.
8)


On the Chaos CL: lets we not forget: in the past runs they got voted in by the community. First in the Plaxor run and now in the new run by Dan. So, we can disagree with it but at one point we just need to accept the outcome.

In 3 years we do a revision. ;)

Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1902
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Re: Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #243 on: June 11, 2013, 08:53:10 PM »
These kinda of fleet comps make me really want Horizon's mandatory escort-to-capital ship ratio, even if its just 1:1 for cruisers and 2:1 for battleships, since that would kill the "battleship in a raid" option.
8)


On the Chaos CL: lets we not forget: in the past runs they got voted in by the community. First in the Plaxor run and now in the new run by Dan. So, we can disagree with it but at one point we just need to accept the outcome.

In 3 years we do a revision. ;)

Yes. Thank you. If we want to vote in restrictions and qualifications, that's fine.

Offline Khar

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 152
    • Loc: Frozen Wastes of Poland
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #244 on: June 11, 2013, 09:37:03 PM »
So, if we're talking restrictions, maybe we could vote on this:

a] bring back original BoN restrictions to chaos CL's. To quote 'Light cruisers are very rare vessels in Chaos fleets and should not be counted as core ships. They are rather a fine addition to it – the true 'pearls in the crown'. You should limit number of Chaos light cruisers to 1 per 1500 point of the fleet unless you are using Warhost Nemesis fleet list.'
So, disregarding Warhost Nemesis part - 1 per 1500 pts. As their author intended.

b] it was mentioned many times before - CL's can't be daemonships. It's worth noting that Warhost Nemesis, where these vessels originated, couldn't use any daemonships at all. So if you wanted to take light daemonship you were forced to use normal chaos list, with 1/1500 restriction. And it was still considered OP.

If we put in these two restricions, I'm completely fine with Chaos Light Cruisers' existance, and I guess most of their other opponents will too.

Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1902
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #245 on: June 11, 2013, 09:42:00 PM »
Deal.

Offline Armiger84

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 131
    • Loc: Boston, MA
    • De Bellis Futuris
BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #246 on: June 11, 2013, 10:22:00 PM »
I'd personally like to see the availability upped a little, or perhaps for a specific list.  I can totally understand & do support discouraging light cruisers in the 13th Black Crusade list, but maybe drop the restriction to 1 per 750 points or 1 per 500 points for a Renegades list?  Make them slightly more common among those who have to make do with whatever they can capture/steal/refurbish or pull out of mothballs?
My modelling blog:  http://armiger84.blogspot.com

Offline Khar

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 152
    • Loc: Frozen Wastes of Poland
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #247 on: June 11, 2013, 10:27:57 PM »
Access to small numbers of Imperial light cruisers would fit that function better, I think. Equally small number of dedicated chaos CL's, + a bit more salvaged imperial ships. Just a thought.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1651
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #248 on: June 12, 2013, 12:47:13 AM »
Why not just give them the same restrictions as endurance/ defiants?
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Sigoroth

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1386
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #249 on: June 12, 2013, 08:31:49 PM »
Why not restrict them to zero per fleet? That solves the problem of them being inappropriate for the list without actually removing them and as such invalidating previous votes. You know, the more crap like these you put in the less valid the project as a whole becomes. The more instances of bad that people have to pour over and make individual decisions on the less viable it all becomes. For example, when someone says "hey, you wanna use the BFG:R lists?", we would ideally like the reply to be "yeah, sure, why not?", not "ah f*ck that sh!t, they put in those gay CLs" (or whatever other absurd notion).

The bottom line is that if people are both willing to play the CLs then they can anyway. Leave them where they are in the BoN, or put them in the ASC. If someone isn't willing to play against them though (which is quite reasonable) then it's just another mark against BFG:R. People gotta learn to be a bit more conservative with these changes.

Offline Gothmog Lord of Balrogs

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 613
  • Lord of the Seven
    • Sepulchre of Heroes
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #250 on: June 12, 2013, 11:21:52 PM »
I'd personally like to see the availability upped a little, or perhaps for a specific list.  I can totally understand & do support discouraging light cruisers in the 13th Black Crusade list, but maybe drop the restriction to 1 per 750 points or 1 per 500 points for a Renegades list?  Make them slightly more common among those who have to make do with whatever they can capture/steal/refurbish or pull out of mothballs?

I agree with this. You'll have to make sure that it is clear that they can't be taken as reserves in a 13th Black Crusade list as well.
"Give me a thousand men crazy enough to conquer Hell and we shall do it!"
www.sepulchreofheroes.blogspot.com
sepulchreofheroes@gmail.com

Offline Duke

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • Loc: Bay Area, CA
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #251 on: June 13, 2013, 06:17:32 AM »
Basic vote please? First round, decide whether to put the Cls in ASC, a valid side project in it's own right.
If they're elected to remain, then start a new round of discussion on restrictions.  ;)


Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1902
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #252 on: June 13, 2013, 06:30:11 AM »
We have already had the vote to include. Hope many people who read this want them to remain included in BFG:R? Let's start with that at least.

Offline Gothmog Lord of Balrogs

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 613
  • Lord of the Seven
    • Sepulchre of Heroes
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #253 on: June 13, 2013, 06:50:37 AM »
We have already had the vote to include. Hope many people who read this want them to remain included in BFG:R? Let's start with that at least.

I agree, they were already voted in. I just say a new vote on restrictions as follows:
13th Black Crusade List- 1 per 1500 points
Renegades Lists- 1 per 750 points

vs

The currently voted on document.
"Give me a thousand men crazy enough to conquer Hell and we shall do it!"
www.sepulchreofheroes.blogspot.com
sepulchreofheroes@gmail.com

Offline afterimagedan

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1902
    • Loc: Chicago IL, USA
Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #254 on: June 13, 2013, 06:57:59 AM »
What do you think the restriction on the powers lists should be?