BFG:R Chaos

[afterimagedan]

Sorry, slaughter.

[afterimagedan]

Sorry, slaughter.

[afterimagedan]

Sorry i meant slaughter. Seems weird to has much more options for imperial escorts than chaos ones.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

At least the Havoc. And I could see pirates and renegades boarding and taking over a lot of IN frigates on deep space/system patrols.

[afterimagedan]

Fine but the same could be true of the chaos vessels. Chaos doesn't always get along. We are taking out a handful of vessels from the renegade fleet. I think we shouldnt drop more than the idolator for escorts.

[Armiger84]

I could see the Idolator being more specialized/limited perhaps.  Iconoclasts and Havics should be pretty common (especially Iconoclasts).  It's hard to get a feel for how long the Infidel's been around, but the lore makes it sound like Battlefleet Obscuras has been dealing with them ever since the design went missing.  I kinda wish GW did more with the Maelstrom.  It could be fun to work on a Battlefleet Ultima/Maelstrom Wardens vs. Red Corsairs/Ultima Pirates campaign book & lists...

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

I could see the Idolator being more specialized/limited perhaps.  Iconoclasts and Havics should be pretty common (especially Iconoclasts).  It's hard to get a feel for how long the Infidel's been around, but the lore makes it sound like Battlefleet Obscuras has been dealing with them ever since the design went missing.  I kinda wish GW did more with the Maelstrom.  It could be fun to work on a Battlefleet Ultima/Maelstrom Wardens vs. Red Corsairs/Ultima Pirates campaign book & lists...

Imperial Armour Vol 10 has Maelstrom lists. I need to email FW again about them letting us publicaly host those lists now that BFG is defunct AND all other BFG resources are free and public (including their own Tau fleet list!)

[horizon]

Aye, having FW for free would be the last thing they could do... instead of a t-shirt...

as for the Infidel: keep it free to the renegades.

As a sidenote: Renegades: can be from various sources. Not everyone who turned from the Emperor went Chaos/into the Eye.
So I would say that even rarer vessels are available in those fleets.

If I field Styx/Carnage/Carnage I can reserve in the Slaughter so my renegade fleet remains playable.
But I also field 6 Infidels.....

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well the Infidel is the go to Chaos escort so it should be a really good reason to drop them (like adding a similarish ship in its place ala Sword~Falchion).

[afterimagedan]

We could vote on it if you want. I would like to see it kept in.

[Armiger84]

As an alternative to dropping the Infidel, what about increasing the cross-bleed of escorts?  Say, something more like 0-6 Imperial escorts per 500 points (rather than 750) or part thereof.  Even if it's just an option, that might encourage people to build more rag-tag escort squadrons out of a mix of Imperial and Chaos escorts.  A combination of Cobras and Iconoclasts and Infidels could get you a torpedo squadron that could also throw a few punches too, for example (alternatively, the Iconoclasts could end up being used as ablative shields for the Cobras... not a bad idea and not necessarily overpowering either).  There probably aren't too many people (other than me) who'd be sorry to trade out their Idolators for Firestorms in an escort squadron either I suspect.

For that matter, what about adding the Recommissioned Escort from the Rogue Trader List?  (the inverted Cobra, 1 torpedo, 2 guns).

[Sigoroth]

Light Cruisers for Chaos: I ain't a fan in principle. But, it is not impossible to have a Dauntless, Endeavour, Endurance, Defiant to go Renegade.
Also: with the Slaughter around, who needs a light cruiser in the Chaos fleet.
Also: why add CL to the Chaos list? It is a gap-hole filler. Why fill all gaps?*

^ This. First; there's no particular reason why there'd have been pre-heresy light cruisers. The Empire was in a conquering/expansionist phase, not a patrol/protect phase. (If they did have them and some went rogue then they'd have been the first ships to have suffered extinction by attrition in the intervening millennia.)Second; later CLs may have turned renegade, but if so these would be adequately accounted for by Dauntless, Endeavours, Endurances, Defiants and Siluria. Third; Chaos fleets have no need of CLs, either in game or in fluff. Fourth; it's hard to imagine any Chaos captain wanting to command a CL. A ship slow enough and fragile enough to get hunted by escorts and yet still unable to do appreciable damage one-out against a ship of the line. If a Chaos captain has enough influence to commandeer resources and crew for a capital ship then they would opt for a larger ship, not a CL. Fifth; the Slaughter pretty much obviates any CL for Chaos. Sixth; the models suck. I mean really, a cruiser with one deck cut out. Fanbloodywootashootic.

I mean, taken altogether, the inclusion of a purpose built Chaos CL just for the sake of it smacks of fanboyism. Or just an unrestrained eagerness to fill every single niche, gap or hole. There is no reason whatsoever to give Chaos CLs. It's a terrible idea.

Ok, so, for the sake of flavour some Chaos lists can include current IN ships and vice versa. In this scenario, yes, it'd be possible for Chaos to take an IN CL. Fine. No argument. It might also be possible under certain circumstances for a pirate or renegade fleet (ie, not "Chaos") to have a CL as a flagship. Ok, fine again. Dauntless or what have you. Just ... not ... these ... dreadful ... concoctions.

[horizon]

And in order to not make the conversions people did obsolete they can be used as count as Dauntless, Endeavour, etcetera.
The Chaos CL model itself and how one appreciates it aesthetically is entirely subjective.

[Khar]

Conversion may also be used as quite fitting pre-heresy strike cruisers. Suits them even better than counts as Imperial counterparts.

Sigoroth, as for your mention of fanboyism, well, I've been talking with one of BoN creators about how Chaos CL's came to be (it was his old opponents' work) and it turns out they were nearly custom made for slaanesh Ld-daemongombing and/or making very top-heavy chaos fleets. Who would've thought. He was a bit shocked they found their way to the revision.

Making then unable to take daemon upgrade and making them 0-1 agains sort of fixes both problems... But in general, if anyone wants to get rid of them, he has my vote. Separate thread for them, maybe?

[ehlijen]

How about requiring light cruisers to be squadroned with at least one line cruiser?

That way they wouldn't be plugging much in the way of holes the faster line cruisers don't already fill.