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Author Topic: BFG:R Chaos  (Read 65607 times)

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #210 on: June 08, 2013, 07:36:40 PM »
Horizon, by your logic, we can pretty remove escorts from the chaos list also. I do see your point about not having to fill gaps but its hard to get around Bessemer's logic.
Ehm. No. Chaos was created with escorts so that was no gap intended.

My point is that multiple ways to fill gaps aren't a problem. If you are saying they are, we should remove chaos escorts and for that matter IN escorts.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #211 on: June 08, 2013, 07:43:17 PM »
At some point there needs to be a stop to decisions about dropping ships that were voted in just because people don't like them. The trend seems to just make ASC the place for BFGR ships people don't like. That's silly. Anyways, if someone would like to propose votes and there is a trend that people support it, fine. Making alterations, fine. Voting out ships voted in, that's kind of stupid. Use the search function and find the chaos ships vote.

Offline Armiger84

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #212 on: June 08, 2013, 07:52:37 PM »
I'm sorry.  My purpose in bringing this thread back was due to a moment of inspiration where I played around with some of the fleet lists available to Chaos in an attempt to make them more thematically interesting to me.  Beyond that, my hope was that people would consider my suggestions and provide some constructive feedback as to whether or not it was a worthwhile endeavor to consider after the rest of the BFG:R updates had been completed.

Quite clearly, this isn't the particular dialog people wish to engage in regarding the Chaos fleet list, and I now quite regret accidentally rekindling this discussion.  I think I'll shelve my thoughts on the matter of tweaking the Chaos fleet lists until we come back after a few years of gameplay with a completed BFG:R project to see if anything needs adjustment then.  I doubt this will halt the ongoing conversation, but I feel I owe an apology to the folks attempting to finish off the BFG:R project as a whole for not thinking through the possible consequences of bringing up Chaos fleet composition again.
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Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #213 on: June 08, 2013, 07:57:52 PM »
Ive never considered a light cruiser as point filler. The very idea just doesnt click for me. When i take a light cruiser its becaue i have a specific role in mind for it or because i need a budget pre-req.
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Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #214 on: June 08, 2013, 08:00:16 PM »
Ya,lets  finish bfg:r completely, a review can always be done threeyears from now.

@dan, no that is not what I am saying. Bfg was created with escorts for chaos and imperials, so they should exist. They are not an intended gap like no light cruisers for chaos have been.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 08:03:01 PM by horizon »

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #215 on: June 08, 2013, 08:31:30 PM »
My point is, the same logic applies to IN. The light cruisers for IN do the same thing chaos escorts so for chaos. They fill a similar niche so there is no problem with overlap. By your arguments, why should there by any new ships? All the niches the original creators wanted are there. Anyways, I don't really care anymore. I think a good compromise would be to limit the light cruisers for chaos.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #216 on: June 08, 2013, 10:17:41 PM »
I'm sorry.  My purpose in bringing this thread back was due to a moment of inspiration where I played around with some of the fleet lists available to Chaos in an attempt to make them more thematically interesting to me.  Beyond that, my hope was that people would consider my suggestions and provide some constructive feedback as to whether or not it was a worthwhile endeavor to consider after the rest of the BFG:R updates had been completed.

Quite clearly, this isn't the particular dialog people wish to engage in regarding the Chaos fleet list, and I now quite regret accidentally rekindling this discussion.  I think I'll shelve my thoughts on the matter of tweaking the Chaos fleet lists until we come back after a few years of gameplay with a completed BFG:R project to see if anything needs adjustment then.  I doubt this will halt the ongoing conversation, but I feel I owe an apology to the folks attempting to finish off the BFG:R project as a whole for not thinking through the possible consequences of bringing up Chaos fleet composition again.

Light cruisers aside I do agree with your idea of limiting certain ships, both from a fluff and gameplay standpoint. Ive probably got a half dozen things Im running through right now but I will definatly be squeezing in a better response to your op!
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Offline Bessemer

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #217 on: June 09, 2013, 12:05:37 AM »
Armiger84, you shouldn't be apologising for anything! This is a public forum for ideas and you were perfectly justified in posting.

It's the rest of us who've got a little carried away with the Chaos light cruiser debate. Something I'm guilty of as much as the next man :-[ If I'd known it would have got this heated I would have kept out, but then I go and run my mouth! So sorry on my account :-[

 Lets drop it for now people and steer back towards Armiger's OP


In response to your original post, I do get your points on the Renegade list regarding the dropping of certain ships. Not too sure on the removal of the cruiser limit, though. I see your point on doing so to encourage the taking of cruisers over battleships, but wouldn't a 0-1 limit on BB's do the same? I take it the Renegade list is tailored towards a leaner, resource poor fleet compared to a full-on Incursion fleet?

As for the Marked fleets, I think Dan's point on Marks forcing a certain play syle hold some ground.  I know the Slaughter and Relictor are often regarded as "Khornate" vessles due to their speed making the taking of lords/warmasters with the MOK a shoe-in for these ships.
However, full-wise these ships make excellent raid ships. Something Chaos has a dependency on as opposed to the more regimented IN. In effect, the Slaughter and Relictor are just as attractive a pick for a Slaneshi warmaster as a Khornate Warmaster. Get in quick and get those slaves! Or Nurgle Warmaster to destroy all that is clean and pure.
A restriction based on Allegiance is a little hard to make IMO.

Hope that helps. And keep those ideas coming! ;)
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Offline Armiger84

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BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #218 on: June 09, 2013, 03:36:11 AM »
@Bessemer

Yeah, that's especially why I was looking for input/looking for people to refine & check my work.

The challenges in trimming a list down to fit a certain theme are:
1) Do I even have an appropriate/correct theme/play style in mind for this fleet?
2) Do my restrictions and selections actively support that play style I have in mind appropriately?
and
3) Am I being too heavy-handed in my restrictions, forcing certain fleet composition decisions rather than encouraging them?

It's not easy to answer those questions on the scale of an entire fleet list, and especially not if its a project you're invested in.

In the case of the Khornate fleet, I was trying to skew the list options toward vessels with medium to close weapons range bands or above average mobility not simply because certain ship types seemed to fit Khornate archetypes, but because I hoped that the remaining ships as group, with the mark and upgrade available in the list, would encourage a certain baseline play style.

As an example:  an Inferno-class cruiser is basically an alternative armament Murder ( I think of it as "Plagueclaw pattern") with the 2 60cm prow lances swapped for Str 6 60cm L/F/R batteries.  It's a minor change with immense consequences.  There is no need for an Inferno to close head-on to the enemy fleet to maximize its firepower, and like a Carnage it can run abeam to the enemy fleet at about 45cm out, pumping salvos into the enemy fleet and moving to encircle them.

There is nothing wrong with that tactic at all, in fact it is largely how I used my Carnages and Devastations and Acherons and Styxes for years, but that didn't feel terribly Khornate to me.  So, by relegating Carnages and Infernos to reserve options (off the list doesn't mean out of the fleet necessarily!), the Khornate line cruiser options shift to the Murder and Slaughter.  You could use Murders and Devastations and Unbelievers to circle at a distance... But you would be wasting your prow armament.  Alternatively, without the Carnage as a go-to line cruiser, I was hoping a player would be encouraged to instead play to the fleet's massed prow lances advantage (and the moment you line up across from an Imperial player with 8+ locked-on prow/dorsal lances aimed at their command vessel, they begin to forget about the "advantage" of nova cannons for a bit and push to get abeam of you quickly!), which would by necessity leave them eventually mingling their ships with their opponents somewhere near the middle of the table, at which point doubled boarding values and the ability to double your attack craft for a turn can crush softened targets.

I'm still not sure about my grand cruiser & battleship selection options, in fact I'm having a hard time justifying it to myself at the moment because it seems to play to 40k Khornate stereotypes and not necessarily Khornate fleet tactics.  That said, it's tempting to hang back with a Despoiler, and not at all with a Relictor (see that point about whether or not I'm being too heavy-handed instead of encouraging).

My hope was to encourage/guide players toward Khornate tactics by limiting ships to those that would support those tactics rather than building a fleet of "archetypically Khornate" ships.  I realize it is a bit of a fine distinction.

Slaanesh and Nurgle will comparatively be difficult to theme.  Everything uses the same ships, but "how" is the hard part.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 03:45:12 AM by Armiger84 »
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Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #219 on: June 09, 2013, 05:03:44 AM »
I think your over thinking the god lists, they should be viewed more as add ons to the 13th list than their own individual lists (even tho they are seperate).

What I would look for on a basic level is the 13th and renegade lists to be the main differentiating point. The 13th can largely remain the same and its focused on the grand fleet ideal, no light cruisers but most of the other ship options and the mark limitations. 

Adding on to that base would be the PoC "god" options, having the same focus on a grand fleet with the same ship choices (adding the unique ships of course) but more limited command, marks, etc. The playstyle for these doesnt need to be shaped by the ship selection because the special abilities direct that well enough.

Now on the opposite we have the renegade list which would be much more restricted for certain ships but wide open with special options like a variety of marks, special ships, etc. Right off the top I would fluff cut at least the Despoiler, Acheron, and Slaughter. Probably the Idolator as well.
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Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #220 on: June 09, 2013, 07:31:40 AM »
Armiger, in your example of the khornate fleet using carnages, acherons, and devs, the player who puts the mark of khorne on those ships has wasted points. It self-regulates. See my point? So, the marks themselves encourage particular play styles. I don't think that we need to force that play style by writing it into the rules.

As far as the renegade list having more restrictions, I could see some work being done if a good case is made for dropping ships to reserves only. Andrew, the few ships you listed to be fluff cut, I would like to hear more on that including some sources for those who don't know the fluff you are referring to.

Offline Gothmog Lord of Balrogs

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #221 on: June 09, 2013, 08:10:14 AM »
Armiger, in your example of the khornate fleet using carnages, acherons, and devs, the player who puts the mark of khorne on those ships has wasted points. It self-regulates. See my point? So, the marks themselves encourage particular play styles. I don't think that we need to force that play style by writing it into the rules.

As far as the renegade list having more restrictions, I could see some work being done if a good case is made for dropping ships to reserves only. Andrew, the few ships you listed to be fluff cut, I would like to hear more on that including some sources for those who don't know the fluff you are referring to.

Well the Idolator at least is built in the EoT, so I can see how that is rare for Pirates and Renegades through out the Imperium
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Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #222 on: June 09, 2013, 12:58:06 PM »
Sure Despoiler: Only three were ever built, all of which were active in the Gothic war. Now Im sure the FW in the EoT can probably make more, but its pretty unlikely that any pirates would have one.

Acheron: Only one was ever built... same as above, Sure they may be able to build others in the EoT but its very unlikely anyone else would have them.

Slaughter: Although this one is not as uncommon as the others the designs for its drives were destroyed so that would probably make replacements hard to come by, by removing this from the list it also opens up the gap for light cruisers.

Idolator, Infidel: Both of these are Chaos designs presumably built entirely within the EoT and no Imperial counterparts exist.

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Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #223 on: June 09, 2013, 03:03:28 PM »
Not bad. I did my research as well. I agree; taking out the Despoiler and Acheron seems appropriate. I have a harder time seeing the carnage, isolator, and infidel removed. I could budge on the carnage but dropping the carnage and both the isolator and infidel I don't think we should do. 

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #224 on: June 09, 2013, 03:37:55 PM »
Why drop the Carnage?

The escorts really wouldnt be a big loss either. You will have access to Iconoclast, Havoc, Sword, Firestorm, Falchion, and Cobra.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.