Yeah, I'm Necro-ing the thread, but I figure what I want to discuss belongs here rather than in a new thread.
By way of explanation: Yesterday AndrewChristlieb posted his dissatisfaction with the reserve rules in the ASC 2.0 Imperial Navy thread, which had me thinking for a while about fleet composition, reserve rules, and fleet lists. I'll save the parts of that for other discussions where they belong, but while spending a few hours mulling over this last night, I began to feel like we could have done some things better in the Chaos Renegades and god-specific fleet lists in the BFG:R Chaos document. I wasn't even thinking about this at the time we finalized the lists, which I'm kicking myself for.
To give you something to think about, compare the Armageddon Sector and Bastion Fleets lists (I'm ignoring the space marine vessels for the sake of this comparison). Neither one is a copy of the "core" Gothic Sector list, and they do share some similarities (the core of the list is made up of the same four cruisers, overlap in escorts), the moment you go beyond the fleet's core, things change greatly.
The Armageddon list fills out its cruiser section with a variety of locally-produced light cruiser hulls, and replaces the Overlord with the Armageddon. Players can take one battle cruiser for every cruiser in their fleet, there are no grand cruisers present, and the battleship options offer a heavy carrier, hybrid carrier, and dedicated lance boat. The options (assuming the player is not taking Marine vessels) encourage the player to build a fleet of light cruisers and up-gunned Lunars (Armageddons), and provide a number of battleship options in larger games to provide attack craft or load up on lances.
In comparison, the Bastion Fleet list brings the four core cruisers, brings back the Dauntless, and adds the Armageddon's light cruisers at the core level. At the battlecruiser level, the player is absolutely spoiled for choice with all of the existing CBs present, plus a trio of grand cruiser hulls fighting for the same slots. By contrast the battleship options are primarily gun boats, which with their availability would encourage a player to select their carriers at the cruiser and battle/grand cruiser level.
The fleets lists, by withholding some ships and offering others, as well as by playing with the numbers required to unlock certain types of ships, encourage certain types of game play without requiring it. The Armageddon list makes it easy to build a fleet from the height of the Third War for Armageddon, a combination of mass-produced light cruisers and up-gunned Lunars (now Armageddons) as the Imperial Navy struggles to match numbers parity with the rampaging Ork fleet and tries to out-range and out-gun the heavier Hammer-class cruisers and Ork battleships. The Bastion Fleets list represents the Imperial build-up for the 13th Black Crusade, desperately attempting to bring as much firepower to bare in an attempt to intercept Abaddon's forces and hold the Cadian Gate. Ships from across the Imperium are present, including lots of rarer and older hulls taken out of mothball fleets, and while the player has a lot more choice, this will probably tend toward the player designing a fleet built more heavily around line cruisers, with light, battle, and grand cruisers supplementing that core. These two lists from the Armada supplement have a very different feel to them.
By contrast, in the BFG:R Chaos lists we have Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade list, Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade list plus token Imperial cruisers and Space Marine strike cruisers, and Abaddon's 13th Black Crusade list with fleet-wide single Chaos god marks. I feel like we might have dropped the ball when it came to designing themed, characterful fleets.
So, since I'm already at the point where this has become a huge post, I'm going to include a couple of suggestions on how we could tweak some of the fleet lists to make them less...clones of each other. These are just suggestions and hopefully talking points, and I'd just like to see how people respond. I'm not looking to change things immediately, what we have is fine and choice means people could build themed lists if they want, but I feel like we could nudge that decision process along a little (hopefully without being overly restrictive) like the Imperial lists manage to do.
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Chaos Renegade Fleet List
- keep the commanders and marks the same as the current list
- my assumption is this is meant to be more of a rag-tag mixed fleet, a combination warfleet and piracy fleet, something similar to what the Red Corsairs might be using. As a consequence, I'd like to see it push players more toward using cruisers.
Battleships
- 1 BB for every 3 cruisers or heavy cruisers
Despoiler
Desecrator
Relictor
Desolator
The original lore suggested there were only three Despoilers built. We seem to have loosened that up a bit since then, but I like the idea of a handful of Desecrators sitting around as "venerable battle barges" in various Marine fleets, and that a few of them might have found their way into renegade Marine hands. The Relictor also seems like it would be less common.
Grand Cruisers
- 1 grand cruiser for every 3 cruisers or heavy cruisers
Retaliator
Repulsive
Nephilim
Executor
I would exclude the Nephilim, but its lore shows it as operating out of the Maelstrom, so it fits pretty well with my assumptions about fleet theme. As for the Executor, this is a personal choice related to Imperial ship selection options, more on that later.
Heavy Cruisers
- 1 heavy cruiser for every 2 cruisers
Styx
Hecate
Hades
Acheron
I considered taking out the Styx, but these were once the Imperial go-to carrier support vessel until the development of the Mars, so in terms of relative availability, I'm keeping it in for now. As for axing the Acheron, it's out for the same reason as the Executor, more on that later.
Cruisers
- 0-infinite (? - it might be worth it to cap it again at 12, or maybe 16 or so)
Devastation
Murder
Carnage
Slaughter
Inferno
Heretic
Unbeliever
Schismatic
I took the Inferno back out, mostly because their lore suggests they are relatively rare, and because of how it would impact the Imperial cruiser selections. I left the Schismatic in, although I'm still debating that one.
Escorts
Idolator
Infidel
Havoc
Iconoclast
Space Marines
- keep it the same
Imperial Renegades
- keep it the same (1 ship per 750 points, up to 185 points in cost, Armageddon or Bastion lists, which really just means the Bastion list, and -1 Ld after rolling.)
So, some explanation. A lot of my removals from the Chaos list options were meant to encourage taking Imperial ships. Why take a Gothic when you can take an Acheron or an Executor? Why take a Lunar when you can take an Inferno? Now, if you want heavy lance broadsides, your choices are to either reach for a Desolator or Desecrator, or pull in a Gothic or a Lunar. By stripping out the big beautiful carrier battleship (Despoiler), the player is now encouraged to take a Styx, Retaliator, Nephilim, more Devastations, or even a Defiant or Strike Cruiser to cover their attack craft requirements. As a consequence, a Chaos Renegade fleet would build more towards cruisers and away from battleships, and hopefully the Imperial and Space Marine list options actually look more useful and attractive than they did before. They're still not mandatory by any means, but they're also hopefully less forgettable.
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Berserker Fleet of Khorne
- keep the commanders and marks the same as the current list.
- my goal in adjusting ship selections is to encourage players to build a fleet that will close and engage the opponent's fleet in close-quarters barrages, hit & run attacks, and boarding.
Battleships
- 1 battleship for every 3 cruisers or heavy cruisers
0-1 Conqueror
Despoiler
Desecrator
Relictor
Desolator
I'm still debating striking the Despoiler, but I figure it might be more characterful to replace it here again with the ship meant to be a Great Crusade fleet command vessel (Desecrator), and I cut out the Desolator to remove a long-range stand-off ship in favor of the close-quarters Relictor.
Grand Cruisers
- 1 grand cruiser for every 3 cruisers or heavy cruisers
- Retaliators, Executors, and Nephilim must take the Improved Thrusters upgrade
Repulsive
Retaliator
Executor
Nephilim
I'm debating on the Nephilim, but I'd strike the Repulsive for being (a) slow, and (b) a decently ranged gunboat in favor of pushing for broadside-heavy fast grand cruisers. This is definitely me goofing around with ideas.
Heavy Cruisers
Styx
Hecate
Hades
Acheron
You're probably seeing a pattern here, but again, the Acheron is a comparatively long-ranged lance boat, and I'd rather see an Improved Thrusters-equipped Executor in the list.
Cruisers
Devastation
Murder
Carnage
Slaughter
Inferno
Heretic
Unbeliever
Schismatic
I'm prepared for wailing and gnashing of teeth here. This is probably the part where I most strongly push thematic and playstyle changes. Cutting the Carnage and Inferno strips away core long-ranged line cruisers, and in my mind leaving the player with a bunch of ships that generally have fixed forward arc & side battery weapons systems now encourages the player to maneuver to engage the enemy fleet instead of staying at arms' length. Now, a combined fleet of Hades, Murders, and Unbelievers would offer a heavy amount of massed forward arc lance fire while closing, and Slaughters, Schismatics, and Devastations could provide the side battery lances once engaged.
Escorts
Idolator
Infidel
Havoc
Iconoclast
Berserker Tide
- keep it as-is
CSM Crews
- keep it as-is
Demon Ships
- keep it as-is
Possible Addition to the fleet: Chaos Space Hulk
So... on the one hand a massive, slow monstrosity goes entirely against my desire for the Berserker Fleet to play as a close & engage fleet, but on the other hand Angron used the space hulk Devourer of Stars in the First War for Armageddon, and more recently in the "Legion of the Damned" novel, a Khorne fleet (the Cholercaust Crusade) follows a massive space hulk to Certus Minor, so there's plenty of lore reasons to justify a space hulk and its attendant fleet.
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So those are my first couple of suggestions. As an example of what else I'm thinking of, I'd definitely include the Inferno class cruiser in the Sorcerous fleet of Tzeentch, where long-ranged batteries and lots of lances would play more to the Chaos god & fleet's strengths.