BFG:R Chaos

[Talos]

I agree that there is little point in having other lists if the Crusade gets it all, especially since Chaos should be somewhat analogous with IN.

What if we restricted marks to a single squadron? As in, only one mark of each type can be applied in the fleet, although it can be applied to multiple vessels as long as they begin the game in a squadron. As in, basically you could have a nurgle contigent and a khorne one, but no random lone khornite cruiser kicking it without his buddies in addition. Unless of course that was the only khorne marked vessel in the fleet.

This also has an additional natural restriction which limits how many marked vessels there are in total, because players will not want to have large bloated squadrons, encouraging the admiral to make a mark varied fleet.

To further encourage that approach, we could make the mark of Chaos Undivided mandatory for "admirals" of fleets with opposing marks i.e. Slaanesh-Khorne, Tzeench-Nurgle.

These may seem like arbitrary restrictions, but I feel like it would make the crusade list a proper "all marks working together in (forced) harmony" fleet, whereas players looking for fully aligned fleet would look elsewhere. The restrictions would justify the greater availability of ships in the crusade list as well.

[afterimagedan]

So basically only 1 ship/squadron can have each mark?  For example, only one squadron of Carnages/Acheron can have MoT on all ships, but no more than that squadron?  Hmm, I like it. That would put a natural limit and encourage different marks in the fleet, fluffwise, encouraging the "forced harmony," like Talos said. I LOVE IT. I think this is just the restriction that we need and encourages fluffy play of this list.  Yes, they will have access to pretty much everything, and you could use this list to access all ships and not worry about marks, but then you are also playing in a fluffy way, because this would be an undivided style fleet. Talos, you're a genius.

Ok, I think I am going to work on a tentative list PDF tonight for review. I am also working with AndrewChristlieb to make that CSM list, and I will try to get that made also.

Black Crusade
Incursion (maybe call this the "traitor" list, even though all chaos are really "traitors?" "The Lost and the Damned" may work.)
Marked
CSM

[Brethren]

Hi guys,

estimated costs of chaos battleships. Here we go...

My friend send me his calculator. The results get very close when calculating existing ships and it does a good job on pointing out the vessels that are too cheap or too expensive. Like any other formula its numbers are estimated, so a deviation of +/- 10pts is still within tolerance. (Engineer is speaking.  )
Wage of Sin / Desecrator

     FAQ2010: Wage of Sin -> 370pts (book: 430)
             notes:
                  - without Slaanesh stuff
                  - 6 launch bays
                  - 6 dorsal weapon batteries

     BFG:R 1.0: Desecrator -> 365pts (book: 365)
             notes:
                  - 4 launch bays
                  - 9 dorsal weapon batteries

It seems like both variants got the price quite right. So it's more a matter of which version we want to add to the fleet lists. I'm somehow more friendly with the 4 launch bay-Desecrator. More all-round, less 'despoilerish'. The other one wouldn't ruin my day, though. 

Conqueror / Relictor

     FAQ2010: Conqueror -> 295pts (book: 380)
             notes:
                  - without Khorne stuff
                  - 8 dorsal weapon batteries

     BFG:R 1.0: Relictor -> 300pts (book: 360)
             notes:
                  - 9 dorsal weapon batteries

I've got to admit that I was wrong. The Relictor actually turns out cheaper than the Desolator. (The calculator set the Desolator more around 320pts.) Change in firepower occured due to streamlining.
In BFG:R a lot of battleships got an increase of dorsal firepower. I think this was based on the assumtion that on broadside weaponry 1 lance roughly equals 3 weapon batteries. So when battleships usually have 3 dorsal lances it was a bit strange that others only got 6 weapon batteries instead of 9.

Is the dorsal weaponry something that we should discuss, or should I let that one rest? Because if we do there's some dirty loyalist, namely Emperor class, that would need a look, too. And that pdf is already finalized.   

[afterimagedan]

I'm fine with the Desecrator with the increased WB and less LBs like you have it. Anyone else prefer to make it just like the Wages of Sin instead?

Ok, here are the lists I think will work (with some fixes):

13th Black Crusade
Pros: All ships, all marks in one fleet, Abaddon, Planet Killer, CSM, Daemon ships, BSFs, opposing chaos god marks may be taken if a warmaster is taken and given the mark of chaos undivided.
Cons: If a mark is taken, it may only be on 1 ship/squadron.

Incursion/Marked
Pros: All ships (no named or PK), much more loose Renegade options? (this list needs some help, maybe a more useful renegade option would make this a hefty perk for taking this list), 0-1 CSM strike cruiser.
Cons: limited CSM (to how much?), EITHER Marks only on Warmaster, Lords and CSM. (Lords and CSM only one Mark), OR, pick a mark . all ships can take no mark or that mark only. the previous sentence is there so we can integrate the Marked and Incursion lists because they can choose one or the other way of using marks. (we should drop the forced escort taking.), No BSFs.

Chaos Traitor Legion Fleet (CSM)
Pros: cheap CSMs, very accessible marks (pick a mark. all ships can take no mark or that mark only), cheap CSM warmaster with high LD, amazing LD
Cons: VERY limited ship options.

What do you guys think?

[harec]

looks good 

[Brethren]

13th Black Crusade

Incursion/Marked
- EITHER Marks only on Warmaster, Lords and CSM. (Lords and CSM only one Mark),
- OR, pick a mark . all ships can take no mark or that mark only.

- limited CSM (to how much?)
    Easiest way to go would be (0-3) like with lords. Though, I rarely fight battles 2000+ pts, so I can't say if this would be too restrictive.

- we should drop the forced escort taking
     Since this restriction included light cruisers it wasn't that bad. But it isn't necessary, especially because it would limit the Marked List, too.

- much more loose Renegade options? (this list needs some help, maybe a more useful renegade option would make this a hefty perk for taking this list), 0-1 CSM strike cruiser.
     Just how much loose are we talking about? In number of ships? In variety of ships? Both?
The most hefty, loose (and simple to include) thing I can think of right now is making the Imperial Navy lists availiable for Reserves. That way we wouldn't even need to include a CSM Strike Cruiser. On the other hand I'm really afraid to add Nova Cannons to chaos lists.

Chaos Traitor Legion Fleet (CSM)

[afterimagedan]

In my mind, renegade ships would be vessels who's whole crew has gone traitor or has been corrupted OR vessels that have been stolen and re-crewed by Chaos (like the Wolf of Fenris Strike Cruiser).

Anyways, I think it would be nice to how this fleet be allowed to be more expanded in options than the other two.  I think we should change the renegade list to the following:

"For every 750pts in a Chaos fleet, you may spend up to 185 of those points on 0-6 Imperial Navy Escorts OR 1 cruiser from the Segmentum Obscurus Bastion or the Segmentum Solar Armageddon Sector fleet Lists.  Ships with nova cannons may not be taken. Imperial Navy escorts need not be in a single squadron and may be interspersed within other Chaos escort squadrons if desired. These vessels do not count as reserves"

This makes it so you can put a lord or warmaster on the ships, and also CSM. Why you can't do this already doesn't seem very lore-appropriate.  CSM could just, fly over and be on the captured Imperial ship... Also, the -1 Ld seems to deter this as an option for most people so I think it should be removed ( i know!).  Also, the rule doesn't force it to be a cruiser AND/OR escort.  The new rules I suggested allow for more choice from the Chaos player.  Personally, I wouldn't have even used the old rules.  IN cruisers need squadroning much of the time, and having 1 is a bad option ESPECIALLY at -1 Ld.  It is a point sink and you consider the chaos cruiser options you could be taking. The escorts are the only think that seemed to be an alright option.

CSM:
I think 1 CSM per 750pts is a good option instead of a 0-3 number. This way, you have provisions for say 5,000pt games  .

CSM Strike Cruisers:
This would become an option in the above listed rules. We have precedent that SCs can be loyal to Chaos. I would like to see some option for the CSM fleet list to be able to take SCs like this rule would allow.

[Brethren]

This makes it so you can put a lord or warmaster on the ships, and also CSM. Why you can't do this already doesn't seem very lore-appropriate.  CSM could just, fly over and be on the captured Imperial ship...
Sure. Can't wait for more boarding torpedoes.

Also, the -1 Ld seems to deter this as an option for most people so I think it should be removed ( i know!).
I know -1 Ld seems harsh, but it somehow reflects that the crew is either recently gone traitor and not used to the new 'chain of command' or the sailors are pretty new and inexpierienced on this ship.
Plus, if the rules allow, squadroning, lords and CSM now, you can cope with that.
I don't know if I'm completely comfortable removing the penalty, yet. But adding something in between will just (needlessly) complicate stuff.

Also, the rule doesn't force it to be a cruiser AND/OR escort.  The new rules I suggested allow for more choice from the Chaos player.  Personally, I wouldn't have even used the old rules.  IN cruisers need squadroning much of the time, and having 1 is a bad option ESPECIALLY at -1 Ld.  It is a point sink and you consider the chaos cruiser options you could be taking. The escorts are the only think that seemed to be an alright option.
Huh. That was close. Got confused and almost posted something here that would have been embarassing.
To me AND/OR indicates a choice (either/or/or both). So no force here.
But here's one thing that has to be changed in the new rule. The escorts had no point limit, just the cruiser. You can't buy 6 imperial escorts for 185 pts.
And I think I know the reason to the point limit: cheapest Nova Cannon at 190 pts -> limit to 185. Happy faces on both sides of the table.

"For every 750pts in a Chaos fleet, you may take 1 cruiser up to 185 pts OR 0-6 Imperial Navy Escorts, from the Segmentum Obscurus Bastion or the Segmentum Solar Armageddon Sector fleet Lists. Ships with nova cannons may not be taken. Imperial Navy escorts need not be in a single squadron and may be interspersed within other Chaos escort squadrons if desired. These vessels do not count as reserves"

/edit: Oh, and there is another issue. Do Strike Cruisers gone renegade come with SM/CSM on board or not? The latter would change their point value.

CSM:
I think 1 CSM per 750pts is a good option instead of a 0-3 number. This way, you have provisions for say 5,000pt games  .
Fine with me.

CSM Strike Cruisers:
This would become an option in the above listed rules. We have precedent that SCs can be loyal to Chaos. I would like to see some option for the CSM fleet list to be able to take SCs like this rule would allow.
Check.

[AndrewChristlieb]

This makes it so you can put a lord or warmaster on the ships, and also CSM. Why you can't do this already doesn't seem very lore-appropriate.  CSM could just, fly over and be on the captured Imperial ship...
Sure. Can't wait for more boarding torpedoes.

Its going to take more than defecting to attract the attention of a god, even if you do so in spectacular fashion, and I dont really see a Lord or Warmaster jumping ship like that. After all these guys are mostly on their own or in small groups not big fleets unless theres a Crusade going on and then the organisers are probably going to want to keep people on the ships theyre experianced with and not order a lot of new commands. CSM I could see maybe but I dont think CSM should be freely available in the chaos fleets if they get their own list.

Also, the -1 Ld seems to deter this as an option for most people so I think it should be removed ( i know!).
I know -1 Ld seems harsh, but it somehow reflects that the crew is either recently gone traitor and not used to the new 'chain of command' or the sailors are pretty new and inexpierienced on this ship.
Plus, if the rules allow, squadroning, lords and CSM now, you can cope with that.
I don't know if I'm completely comfortable removing the penalty, yet. But adding something in between will just (needlessly) complicate stuff.

-1 leadership is fine, and fluffy. There has to be something to offset their availability.

Also, the rule doesn't force it to be a cruiser AND/OR escort.  The new rules I suggested allow for more choice from the Chaos player.  Personally, I wouldn't have even used the old rules.  IN cruisers need squadroning much of the time, and having 1 is a bad option ESPECIALLY at -1 Ld.  It is a point sink and you consider the chaos cruiser options you could be taking. The escorts are the only think that seemed to be an alright option.
Huh. That was close. Got confused and almost posted something here that would have been embarassing.
To me AND/OR indicates a choice (either/or/or both). So no force here.
But here's one thing that has to be changed in the new rule. The escorts had no point limit, just the cruiser. You can't buy 6 imperial escorts for 185 pts.
And I think I know the reason to the point limit: cheapest Nova Cannon at 190 pts -> limit to 185. Happy faces on both sides of the table.

"For every 750pts in a Chaos fleet, you may take 1 cruiser up to 185 pts OR 0-6 Imperial Navy Escorts, from the Segmentum Obscurus Bastion or the Segmentum Solar Armageddon Sector fleet Lists. Ships with nova cannons may not be taken. Imperial Navy escorts need not be in a single squadron and may be interspersed within other Chaos escort squadrons if desired. These vessels do not count as reserves"

/edit: Oh, and there is another issue. Do Strike Cruisers gone renegade come with SM/CSM on board or not? The latter would change their point value.

Im not sure what the problem is with the current ruling? The only change I would make is allowing 1 cruiser AND/OR 0-6 escorts per 750. I would not put a restriction on escorts that can be taken (0-6 from any Imperial Navy fleet list) Strike Cruisers would not need to add +35 points, this should be addressed in the CSM fleet list.

CSM:
I think 1 CSM per 750pts is a good option instead of a 0-3 number. This way, you have provisions for say 5,000pt games  .
Fine with me.

CSM should only be available as reserves if they get their own list, works out about the same as 1/750 anyway.

CSM Strike Cruisers:
This would become an option in the above listed rules. We have precedent that SCs can be loyal to Chaos. I would like to see some option for the CSM fleet list to be able to take SCs like this rule would allow.
Check.

Once again this should be addressed in the CSM fleet list.

[Brethren]

Its going to take more than defecting to attract the attention of a god, even if you do so in spectacular fashion, and I dont really see a Lord or Warmaster jumping ship like that.
But there's no reason why Imperial Admirals and Commanders can't defect, is there? While they still could be adressed with their imperial rank, they would be 'in game terms' Warmaster and Lord.

I dont think CSM should be freely available in the chaos fleets if they get their own list.
We're working on that one. But limiting CSM to the CSM List and taking them as Reserves won't work out. You said that CSM could just take over any traitor ship they wanted... so why can't they be on a ship that isn't in the (very ship limited) CSM Fleet List? Plus a 13th Cruade with CSM availiable just on every 3rd ship? That doesn't get the picture right, does it?
There will be restrictions on how many CSM a list can have (especially the Renegade List). I know that you're just trying to make the CSM List more distinct, but the limit can't be 'None at all.'

-1 leadership is fine, and fluffy. There has to be something to offset their availability.
I think I'm on the same page here.

Im not sure what the problem is with the current ruling? The only change I would make is allowing 1 cruiser AND/OR 0-6 escorts per 750. I would not put a restriction on escorts that can be taken (0-6 from any Imperial Navy fleet list)
Current ruling and suggestions:

• (FAQ 2010) - 1 Cruiser and/or 0-6 Escorts every 1500pts
• (afterimagedan) - 1 Cruiser or 0-6 Escorts every 750pts
• (AndrewChristlieb) - 1 Cruiser and/or 0-6 Escorts every 750pts

afterimagedan simply wanted to loose the leash a bit, so you could choose to take 2 cruisers or 2 escort squadrons every 1500pts. Your suggestion would allow more than half of the fleet to be imperial ships. I wouldn't need that many. With -1 Ld it still could be finde, though.

Strike Cruisers would not need to add +35 points, this should be addressed in the CSM fleet list.
Of course they wouldn't add +35 points. My question was simply, do all SM ships (Strike Cruiser & Escorts) taken from the Segmentum Solar List come with (C)SM? The answer I am hoping for is 'Yes, they do.' While certainly not every boarded SM ship would attract CSM, there's a voice in my head that tells me not to invent stuff for every possibility out there and to keep it simple.

[AndrewChristlieb]

But there's no reason why Imperial Admirals and Commanders can't defect, is there? While they still could be adressed with their imperial rank, they would be 'in game terms' Warmaster and Lord.

Well its unlikely that the Warmaster would end up on an Imperial ship anyway with the current restrictions, I suppose a Lord could be on one but I dont think they should be able to take any Marks if they do so and thats just one more rule to complicate things :/.

We're working on that one. But limiting CSM to the CSM List and taking them as Reserves won't work out. You said that CSM could just take over any traitor ship they wanted... so why can't they be on a ship that isn't in the (very ship limited) CSM Fleet List? Plus a 13th Cruade with CSM availiable just on every 3rd ship? That doesn't get the picture right, does it?
There will be restrictions on how many CSM a list can have (especially the Renegade List). I know that you're just trying to make the CSM List more distinct, but the limit can't be 'None at all.'

Maybe it should be like the Armageddon list then? Allow them but put the same restrictions on squadroning, leadership, etc.

I think I'm on the same page here.

word

Current ruling and suggestions:

• (FAQ 2010) - 1 Cruiser and/or 0-6 Escorts every 1500pts
• (afterimagedan) - 1 Cruiser or 0-6 Escorts every 750pts
• (AndrewChristlieb) - 1 Cruiser and/or 0-6 Escorts every 750pts

afterimagedan simply wanted to loose the leash a bit, so you could choose to take 2 cruisers or 2 escort squadrons every 1500pts. Your suggestion would allow more than half of the fleet to be imperial ships. I wouldn't need that many. With -1 Ld it still could be finde, though.


I doubt many people will be taking more than 6 escorts in a 1500 pt Chaos fleet anyway and the restriction needs to be loosened to make the Cruiser choices worth a darn but it would be a shame to have to choose between taking a group of swords and a 2nd cruiser. Right now the only really decent cruiser options are the Dauntless because they match the Chaos cruisers speed and the Gothic because it doesnt require squadroning to do its job, even with 1/750 I dont think many people will be taking Lunars or Tyrants but it might make the Voss light cruisers an option.

Of course they wouldn't add +35 points. My question was simply, do all SM ships (Strike Cruiser & Escorts) taken from the Segmentum Solar List come with (C)SM? The answer I am hoping for is 'Yes, they do.' While certainly not every boarded SM ship would attract CSM, there's a voice in my head that tells me not to invent stuff for every possibility out there and to keep it simple.

Yes all Strike cruisers and Space Marine escorts have SMs reguardless of what list they come from. For ease I would say if you were to take a Strike cruiser or escort (which I dont think would fly with the current rules) they would then have CSM.

[/quote]

[afterimagedan]

13th Black Crusade
Pros: All ships, all marks in one fleet, Abaddon, Planet Killer, CSM, Daemon ships, BSFs, opposing chaos god marks may be taken if a warmaster is taken and given the mark of chaos undivided.
Cons: If a mark is taken, it may only be on 1 ship/squadron in the fleet.

-Should they be able to use both types of Blackstone Fortresses? (fluff-masters?)
-Should we limit CSMs? If so, how should it look? 1 per 500pts? (I think Andrew is right about this, there should be some sort of limit. Ships that would show up for a crusade would not ALL have CSM on them. Also, they are 35pts each in this list as opposed to the CSM list being worked on)


Incursion/Marked
Pros: All ships (no named or PK), much more loose Renegade options? (this list needs some help, maybe a more useful renegade option would make this a hefty perk for taking this list), 0-1 CSM strike cruiser.
Cons: limited CSM, EITHER Marks only on Warmaster, Lords and CSM. (Lords and CSM only one Mark), OR, pick a mark, all ships can take no mark or that mark only. the previous sentence is there so we can integrate the Marked and Incursion lists because they can choose one or the other way of using marks. No BSFs.

-How should renegades look? I think the -1 Ld is alright if their is a secondary commander that can be placed on their ship (which would make it Ld . I was thinking it could look like this:
 

• "For every 750pts in a Chaos fleet, you may purchase 0-6 Imperial Navy Escorts AND/OR 1 cruiser of up to 185 points from the Segmentum Obscurus Bastion Fleet or the Segmentum Solar Armageddon Sector Fleet lists. Imperial Navy escorts need not be in a single squadron and may be interspersed throughout other Chaos escort squadrons if desired. These vessels do not count as reserves. Renegade cruisers subtract 1 from their randomly determined leadership value."
  

-1 CSM per 750pts.
-Renegade SCs come with built-in CSM.


Chaos Traitor Legion Fleet (CSM)
Pros: cheap CSMs, very accessible marks (pick a mark. all ships can take no mark or that mark only), cheap CSM warmaster with high LD, amazing LD
Cons: VERY limited ship options.

• Still being worked on.

-1 SC per 750pts? This option would allow for something similar looking to the Astral Claws after falling to Chaos.




Getting close! Keep it up guys!

[Brethren]

• "Any escort squadron containing Renegade escorts subtracts 1 from their randomly determined leadership value as well."
  

Renegade escorts didn't suffer that leadership penalty before. Want to put it in?

[afterimagedan]

Hmm, no I don't.

[horizon]

I lost track. What is the current point I should nitpick?