BFG:R Chaos

[Talos]

@harec Good point on the kraken forgot about it.

@Brethren The thing is it's a little weak as a one hit escort, and if we were to include it we would almost certainly convert it to two hits.

But it's not likely to gain much traction either way, so better to actually polish it off before presenting it, right? Giving the community a half-assed thing to vote on will be much more likely to be discarded then a well presented idea with thought and work put into it. That's just how this community works, brethren.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Lol, i thought this was a joke... What would we base it on? If it uses the idolator model it needs to maintain similar displacement and weapons load perhaps drop the batteries and leave the lance as-is.

[horizon]

 I don't mind the weapon layout but I am no fan of this escort.
Idolator + 2 torps and better weaponry...

nah from me

[afterimagedan]

Good call, the Conq and WoS both have csm as part of their cost but the Est, VS, and Scion do not. They should have CSM standard, along with the vanilla CSM barge.

Alright, I think we should vote this in. Can someone give point costs for these and reasoning?

[Talos]

I suggest the following:

1) Conqueror stays the same. Occurs to me Khorne was the cheapest anyway and since we are bringing in the BFG:R battleships we need to make it worth taking the relictor which is almost identical. Total cost: 380pts

2) Wage of Sin stays the same for the same reasons. Total Cost: 430pts

3) Scion of Prospero up by roughly 10pts; we have lowered the marks cost considerably and it is already quite expensive as is. Total cost: 460pts

4) Terminus Est goes up by roughly 10pts, due to CSM crew and weaker mark of nurgle. Optionally, we could keep its immunity to boarding as a special rule unique to the 'est for some extra nurgle flavor. It does already have that pesky death to torpedoes thing going on. Total cost: 440pts

5) Vengeful Spirit up by 15pts due to forced CSM. Not sure about this one though...vanilla CSM battlebarge is the Vengeful Spirit, so it should probably have forced CSM as well.

I am open to arguments and opinions, but bear in mind these are already expensive vessels that were questionably designed as it were. Still, if someone could smotherman these vessels and lay it out, maybe we could make an even better correction?

[Brethren]

Lol, i thought this was a joke... What would we base it on? If it uses the idolator model it needs to maintain similar displacement and weapons load perhaps drop the batteries and leave the lance as-is.

It uses the Infidel as a base model... with added lance turret.

[AndrewChristlieb]

-5cm isnt greatly reduced speed. making it 20cm speed would be more like it. If its based off the Infidel hull tho theres no way I could see that @2 hits.

[horizon]

Agreed with Andrew on both subjects.

[afterimagedan]

Ok, so I think we should work with Brethren's list layout...

13th Black Crusade
all battleships, grand cruisers, heavy cruisers and cruisers
no light cruisers
Blackstone Fortress available
Daemon ships as reserves
CSM available
all Marks of Chaos available (maybe only if Abaddon is around or if the fleet commander is 'undivided')
Chaos Incursion Fleet
only Despoiler and Desolator battleships
all grand cruisers, heavy cruisers, cruisers, light cruisers
escorts and light cruisers are requirements for cruisers as in BFG:R
Renegade Imperial Ships (as in FAQ 2010)
0-1 CSM Strike Cruiser (Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment  )
no Daemon ships as reserves
no Blackstone Fortress
restricted access to CSM
restricted access to Marks of Chaos (like ships with a Commander or CSM)
Marked Chaos Fleet
I would basically make this a add-on to the 13th Crusade list.
all capital ships have to get the same Mark
add the unique ships
maybe add some nifty power according to each Mark (see AndrewChristlieb's list)
lift the reserve restriction on Daemon Ships to 2:1

my assumption:
-no daemon list
-i think there should be something the other lists have available that the 13th black list does not.
-I would like to work with AndrewChristleibs CSM list.

Thoughts?

[Talos]

Only doing a cursory glance, but seems good so far.

[afterimagedan]

Also Conquerer @ 380
Wages of Sin @ 430
Scion of Prospero @ 460
Terminus Best @ 440
Vengeful Spirit @ 425

[AndrewChristlieb]

Ok, so I think we should work with Brethren's list layout...

13th Black Crusade
all battleships, grand cruisers, heavy cruisers and cruisers
no light cruisers
Blackstone Fortress available
Daemon ships as reserves
CSM available
all Marks of Chaos available (maybe only if Abaddon is around or if the fleet commander is 'undivided')

Daemon ships as a purchaseable upgrade, I have some ideas on this also ill get up on the DS thread. CSM available only if they dont get their own list. All marks available but retain the limit of 1/Warmaster or Lord. BSF available, limit max of 2 (no super death shot) Renegade Imperial Ships (as in FAQ 2010)

Chaos Incursion Fleet
only Despoiler and Desolator battleships
all grand cruisers, heavy cruisers, cruisers, light cruisers
escorts and light cruisers are requirements for cruisers as in BFG:R
Renegade Imperial Ships (as in FAQ 2010)
0-1 CSM Strike Cruiser (Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment  )
no Daemon ships as reserves
no Blackstone Fortress
restricted access to CSM
restricted access to Marks of Chaos (like ships with a Commander or CSM)

Limit Grand Cruisers to the Repulsive, no Renegades, no CSM, upto 3 BSF (why would you have none here?) Marks as in the BBB (Warmaster can take one of each mark, lords still one only

Marked Chaos Fleet
I would basically make this a add-on to the 13th Crusade list.
all capital ships have to get the same Mark
add the unique ships
maybe add some nifty power according to each Mark (see AndrewChristlieb's list)
lift the reserve restriction on Daemon Ships to 2:1

This would be the same as a CSM list if we give them theri own

my assumption:
-no daemon list
-i think there should be something the other lists have available that the 13th black list does not.
-I would like to work with AndrewChristleibs CSM list.

I would say no to a Daemon list, they should be extremly rare ships, if theres a fleet of Daemon ships somethings like OMG.

Thoughts?

[afterimagedan]

Aren't renegades entirely fitting for the incursion list?

Actually, I think the Incursion fleet should be given all battleships and the black crusade restricted to just despoiler and desolator. Planet killer also, of course. Limitation to the black crusade list would be only those 3 battleships, no light cruisers, no named battleships from powers of chaos (which I assume will be in the marked fleet list only.

I think the marked fleet list should be set up to be similar to the CSM list AndrewChristlieb is working on. Named chaos god vessels, heavy access to csm, etc.

Here's a question though... What about chaos space marine chapters that are undivided? What list will they take? Do we just make the incursion list able to also be the marked list, that way the CSM list doesn't have to be the marked list?

So,
Black crusade (all sorts of stuff)
Incursion (general chaos cultist type or traitor imperial, may be marked)
Chaos Traitor Marines (CSM list, optional uniform marks like a marked list)
 This at, we have 3 lists to work with, which simplifies things, and we can focus our energy balancing these out. Marks could be options on all lists that way. They wouldn't be then thing differentiating the lists.

[Brethren]

@13th Crusade:
- Since the crusade consists of every dark diciple that could be convinced, intimidated, seduced or pressed, there should be almost everything in it. That includes CSM and Marks.
- Restriction on battleships... funny how this works the other way around, too. But I'm with you on this.
- I did however change my mind about the restrictions of Daemon Ships. As AndrewChristlieb said, they're better as an upgrade than as reserve. This way a you can field a big gathering of daemons... around the sorcerer ships that summon them. That would nail the daemon list in a way.
- That said we could include the marked list here as well. Like... if every ship carrys the same one mark, you'll get access to the additional upgrades from Powers of Chaos. (Do I still get something wrong here? I hope not.) That way the CSM list would be much more different (unique ships, different marks and upgrades).

@Incursion:
- First of all I'd like to point out that the 'Renegade Imperial Ships'-rule (FAQ 2010) isn't that much of a deal. For every 1500 pts you can get one imperial cruiser (up to 185pts, no nova, no imp./chaos upgrades, -1Ld) and/or one squadron of escorts. So except from big battles, you'll mostly see one renegade cruiser and/or one renegade escort squadron. That's no big game changer...
- Main thought about Blackstones was that Abaddon was ordering those around. So why give them to a traitor/pirate list? But honestly, the BSFs are just a footnote to me. So I'll be fine with just about everything.
- I know the Gothic War and the Badab War are a bit apart on the timeline, but I still think that some CSM should be in here. Thinking about '0-3' or '1x every 500pts' or something.
- Marks only on Warmaster, Lords and CSM. (Lords and CSM only one Mark)
- I really don't get why this list should miss any ships (apart from the unique ones). Especially the grand cruisers are around everywhere in old imperial and chaos lists. Given we use the same rules as in BFG:R (1.4) this fleet will look different than the others every time since you have to field escorts and light cruisers. You may think of it otherwise but this is a restriction. More small ships, less big ones. Further restrictions on big ships would really start to hurt.

@Daemon List:
Drop and halfway include it in the 13th Crusade as above.

@Marked List:
Include it in the 13th Crusade as above, if it's represented as intended. Horizons comment is still confusing me on this one.

@CSM List:
As AndrewChristliebs list.

Seems like I'm starting to simplify things... or at least I'm trying to. Less lists, less rules, less confusion about differences, less difficulties to get things right... right? Still having fun here. 

[afterimagedan]

I agree with a lot of what you said brethren. But here is my struggle with the chairs lists: the black crusade list is supposed to have pretty much everything but the more we give it pretty much everything, the less we need other lists. If we go that route, then the IN lists might as well be integrated as well. So, there has to be something that the black crusade list does not include or there has to be some restriction on it, or else the other lists are useless and we can just make one big "chaos fleet list."

So, is there any sort of restriction to the black crusade list that does go against the fluff for the crusade or abaddon?