@afterimagedan To be completely honest, I think you should be able to mark any ship in a fleet, regardless of lord. That would allow for much more thematic fleets in general, although the mark of tzeench would need some revisiting in that case....Also, are YOU heliosravensnest? Or is he a close buddy of yours?
The problem with CSM is that, like Sigoroth once explained to me about strike cruisers, they are not as good as the sum of their parts. All ships can benefit from improved leadership, but not all of them will be designed for hit and run. Similarly, not all of them will have launch bays OR torpedoes OR be good at boarding. So whilst every SM capital vessel is designed to take advantage of every one of these strengths, regular chaos vessels outfitted with said CSM can usually only benefit from about half of the CSM rules. Marked ones gain more but they are also damn expensive vessels at that point.
That is a pretty good way of solving your leadership problem, but it does get rid of what AndrewChristlieb so succinctly put as the "chaos"ness of it all.
That's a good perspective there about the SM ships being optimized for their bonuses whereas Chaos vessels aren't as much. Also, one of the strengths of the Chaos fleet is its range. Having CSM on board gives you some conflict here because they will want to get close and board but that will reduce their range advantage.
As far as the HeliosRavensnest thing.... I will never tell.....
Just kidding. I am not him but we are working on some stuff at this point. It's a blast.
@AndrewChristlieb: We were looking at the 35pts for CSM because that is the price of the upgrade for the VBB to have SMs on it, but I do think that upgrade is priced in a way that reflects some of the usual size and power of the VBB, which is usually a Battleship. I wonder if we should consider that when we come up with the point amount for CSM.
I am not against allowing CSM and marks on any ship you want. Actually, I would like it to be that way, so you can do themed fleets and stuff. We would be able to simplify the fleet lists like the original BFG:R does and not have to have the chaos gods' specific lists. We could just allow the ships in normal lists to take marks on any capitol ship, be able to take CSM on any capitol ship, and the Lord and Warmaster would just be for LD reasons.
ANALYSIS: VBB to add SM bonuses (H&R, Boarding, Ld) is +35 pts.
SM SC with no Master is 8-10 ld, average 9. SM boarding bonus +0pts (presumably written into SM ship cost)
SM SC with a Master is ld 10 at +50pts. SM boarding bonus (presumably written into the SM ship cost)
Chaos Slaughter with +1 Warmaster would be +1 Ld, max 9, average of Ld 8.333 at +30pts with no boarding bonus
Chaos Slaughter with +1 Warmaster and CSM (old style) would be +2 to Ld, average 8.83 Ld at +85pts, CSM boarding bonus,
-side note; Slaughter is seemingly less optimized for the SM boarding and H&R bonus than a SC.
Chaos Slaughter with +2 Warmaster would be +2 Ld, average of 9.33 Ld at +75pts, no boarding bonus.
Chaos Slaughter with +2 Warmaster would be +2 Ld plus CSM, average of Ld 9.83, costs +105pts, SM boarding bonus.
Chaos Slaughter with CSM only is average Ld 9 (if we go with the new SM Ld chart we proposed) for +35pts, plus has CSM boarding bonus.
Chaos Slaughter with CSM and +1 Warmaster is average Ld 9.66 for +70 pts
(if this analysis pointed out anything, it shows me that the +1 and +2 Ld is better than the set 8 and 9 for the points. We should make Chaos be at set rates just like IN).
IN have to spend 50pts to get Ld 9 (if you factor out the RR), Chaos used to have to spend 75pts (factoring out the RR) to get a little more than Ld 9 on average BUT it came with CSM. This points to CSM on that ship costing around 20-25 points, but the Ld bonus was lost because it was included in with the Warmaster, so it would be a bit more on the higher end to add CSM to a ship because of the Ld bonus, 25-30pts. Because Chaos ships are not usually optimized for all the SM bonuses (Sig and Talos pointed this out about the SM SC, even moreso this applies to Chaos ships) they will only benefit from some of the bonuses.
CONCLUSION:We should do something like this.....
-Warmaster at set LD (8 and 9,
just like IN, and do this because the +1 and +2 averages make it better than set values, plus it's easier to keep it even with IN bonus/pts.) Chaos will have no ld 10 option, but CSM will make it attainable. They would be just like IN, RR purchasing power and all, but no Ld10 option.
-Secondary Commander (Lord)
just like IN (+1, max 9, may take a RR that only affects their squadron/ship)
-CSM just how they have always been, still at 35pts.
Compare CSM to the Secondary commanders which are 30pts and you will see why CSM cannot be 30pts, or 25pts unless we want to take away the leadership bonus CSM give. At this point, Secondary commanders give the ship the same Ld bonus as CSM at 30pts, whereas CSM give you the same Ld bonus PLUS all the SM bonuses, for an addition
5 points.
-If there is a Lord or Warmaster leading the ship, CSM add +1 to their Ld amount (either 9 or 10 for Warmasters, and +2 total for Lords, still max 9.)
-All Chaos capitol ships can take a Mark without the need for a Lord or Warmaster.
-MoT will need to be something other than a RR for 15pts because RRs are an option for Lords and Warmasters now.
-Alternately, we could take away the Ld bonus from CSM and make them less points, functioning under the assumption that they still will obey the regular Chaos leaders and are mainly on board to board enemies, not necessarily in the position as leaders. Plus, I don't see CSM being as cohesive as regular SM.
-Also, we could just make the Ld 8 Warmaster into the Lord and make the Chaos secondary commanders into CSM at 35 points, with the option to take a RR.
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