August 01, 2024, 09:15:36 AM

Author Topic: BFG:R Chaos  (Read 65608 times)

Offline harec

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2013, 06:35:19 PM »
The thing is a CSM force will just ocupy a ship when they travel, ships in BFG are huge and Chaos warbands small, they are no longer chapters we should remember, thisis not horus heresy and they don't have any need of maintaning a hole fleet, they just can sumit the traitors  captains to have them as crew, that is how I see CSM and I guess is what game developers wanted.
Any way the problem of points is how do we do cheaper a refit that gives you, +1 to the leadership,+2 to the boarding action(froget the racial aspec is a +2), +1 hit a run atacks, thunderhawks and access to chaos marks, I am not sure If I mis something but is a really good refit. just think that torpedo bomber cost 10 point per lauch bay, if you have a big carrier it will be even very cheap.
I colaborate with a spanish blog called profanus40k.
http://profanus40k.blogspot.com.es/

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2013, 06:46:57 PM »
CSM can be taken on any capitol ship currently and they ahould continue to be allowed to. They offer a better leadership bonus than a Chaos Lord +++ so why should they be reduced in price? This is also the same price that standard marines pay to take a Chaos ship. All in all i think CSM are a steal.

Crap, in was thinking marks.

Why not have the war masters and lords have a set LD and CSM give them +1? That way, CSM don't have the higher LD bonus compared to lords.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 06:50:22 PM by afterimagedan »

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2013, 07:15:56 PM »
@harec Depends on the legion, I suppose: sure night lords and such are only on single ships and whatnot, but try explaining to the 40k community how the black legion is a small splintered force with only a ship in their name and see the response. ;) There certainly are some large fleets out there, said black legion having troops exceeding dozens of combined chapters and fleets to match. Makes sense that they would have some CSM on almost all their vessels.

@afterimagedan To be completely honest, I think you should be able to mark any ship in a fleet, regardless of lord. That would allow for much more thematic fleets in general, although the mark of tzeench would need some revisiting in that case....Also, are YOU heliosravensnest? Or is he a close buddy of yours? ???

@AndrewChristlieb The problem with CSM is that, like Sigoroth once explained to me about strike cruisers, they are not as good as the sum of their parts. All ships can benefit from improved leadership, but not all of them will be designed for hit and run. Similarly, not all of them will have launch bays OR torpedoes OR be good at boarding. So whilst every SM capital vessel is designed to take advantage of every one of these strengths, regular chaos vessels outfitted with said CSM can usually only benefit from about half of the CSM rules. Marked ones gain more but they are also damn expensive vessels at that point. :-\ :)

That is a pretty good way of solving your leadership problem, but it does get rid of what AndrewChristlieb so succinctly put as the "chaos"ness of it all.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2013, 08:56:24 PM »
@afterimagedan To be completely honest, I think you should be able to mark any ship in a fleet, regardless of lord. That would allow for much more thematic fleets in general, although the mark of tzeench would need some revisiting in that case....Also, are YOU heliosravensnest? Or is he a close buddy of yours? ???

The problem with CSM is that, like Sigoroth once explained to me about strike cruisers, they are not as good as the sum of their parts. All ships can benefit from improved leadership, but not all of them will be designed for hit and run. Similarly, not all of them will have launch bays OR torpedoes OR be good at boarding. So whilst every SM capital vessel is designed to take advantage of every one of these strengths, regular chaos vessels outfitted with said CSM can usually only benefit from about half of the CSM rules. Marked ones gain more but they are also damn expensive vessels at that point.

That is a pretty good way of solving your leadership problem, but it does get rid of what AndrewChristlieb so succinctly put as the "chaos"ness of it all.

That's a good perspective there about the SM ships being optimized for their bonuses whereas Chaos vessels aren't as much. Also, one of the strengths of the Chaos fleet is its range. Having CSM on board gives you some conflict here because they will want to get close and board but that will reduce their range advantage.

As far as the HeliosRavensnest thing.... I will never tell.....  :-X Just kidding. I am not him but we are working on some stuff at this point. It's a blast.

@AndrewChristlieb:  We were looking at the 35pts for CSM because that is the price of the upgrade for the VBB to have SMs on it, but I do think that upgrade is priced in a way that reflects some of the usual size and power of the VBB, which is usually a Battleship. I wonder if we should consider that when we come up with the point amount for CSM.

I am not against allowing CSM and marks on any ship you want. Actually, I would like it to be that way, so you can do themed fleets and stuff. We would be able to simplify the fleet lists like the original BFG:R does and not have to have the chaos gods' specific lists. We could just allow the ships in normal lists to take marks on any capitol ship, be able to take CSM on any capitol ship, and the Lord and Warmaster would just be for LD reasons.

ANALYSIS:
VBB to add SM bonuses (H&R, Boarding, Ld) is +35 pts.

SM SC with no Master is 8-10 ld, average 9. SM boarding bonus +0pts (presumably written into SM ship cost)
SM SC with a Master is ld 10 at +50pts. SM boarding bonus (presumably written into the SM ship cost)

Chaos Slaughter with +1 Warmaster would be +1 Ld, max 9, average of Ld 8.333 at +30pts with no boarding bonus
Chaos Slaughter with +1 Warmaster and CSM (old style) would be +2 to Ld, average 8.83 Ld at +85pts, CSM boarding bonus,
    -side note; Slaughter is seemingly less optimized for the SM boarding and H&R bonus than a SC.
Chaos Slaughter with +2 Warmaster would be +2 Ld, average of 9.33 Ld at +75pts, no boarding bonus.
Chaos Slaughter with +2 Warmaster would be +2 Ld plus CSM, average of Ld 9.83, costs +105pts, SM boarding bonus.

Chaos Slaughter with CSM only is average Ld 9 (if we go with the new SM Ld chart we proposed) for +35pts, plus has CSM boarding bonus.
Chaos Slaughter with CSM and +1 Warmaster is average Ld 9.66 for +70 pts
(if this analysis pointed out anything, it shows me that the +1 and +2 Ld is better than the set 8 and 9 for the points. We should make Chaos be at set rates just like IN).

IN have to spend 50pts to get Ld 9 (if you factor out the RR), Chaos used to have to spend 75pts (factoring out the RR) to get a little more than Ld 9 on average BUT it came with CSM. This points to CSM on that ship costing around 20-25 points, but the Ld bonus was lost because it was included in with the Warmaster, so it would be a bit more on the higher end to add CSM to a ship because of the Ld bonus, 25-30pts. Because Chaos ships are not usually optimized for all the SM bonuses (Sig and Talos pointed this out about the SM SC, even moreso this applies to Chaos ships) they will only benefit from some of the bonuses.

CONCLUSION:
We should do something like this.....
-Warmaster at set LD (8 and 9, just like IN, and do this because the +1 and +2 averages make it better than set values, plus it's easier to keep it even with IN bonus/pts.) Chaos will have no ld 10 option, but CSM will make it attainable. They would be just like IN, RR purchasing power and all, but no Ld10 option.
-Secondary Commander (Lord) just like IN (+1, max 9, may take a RR that only affects their squadron/ship)
-CSM just how they have always been, still at 35pts. Compare CSM to the Secondary commanders which are 30pts and you will see why CSM cannot be 30pts, or 25pts unless we want to take away the leadership bonus CSM give. At this point, Secondary commanders give the ship the same Ld bonus as CSM at 30pts, whereas CSM give you the same Ld bonus PLUS all the SM bonuses, for an addition 5 points.
-If there is a Lord or Warmaster leading the ship, CSM add +1 to their Ld amount (either 9 or 10 for Warmasters, and +2 total for Lords, still max 9.)
-All Chaos capitol ships can take a Mark without the need for a Lord or Warmaster.
-MoT will need to be something other than a RR for 15pts because RRs are an option for Lords and Warmasters now.

-Alternately, we could take away the Ld bonus from CSM and make them less points, functioning under the assumption that they still will obey the regular Chaos leaders and are mainly on board to board enemies, not necessarily in the position as leaders. Plus, I don't see CSM being as cohesive as regular SM.
-Also, we could just make the Ld 8 Warmaster into the Lord and make the Chaos secondary commanders into CSM at 35 points, with the option to take a RR.

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Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2013, 09:13:55 PM »
Thanks for taking the time to address all the concerns I proposed; I am personally in favor of replacing the current lords with SM crews and making the lord the ld 8; due to our streamlining of leadership this is a nice touch that really distinguishes chaos from IN in the commander department. It also synergises well with abaddon; you can no longer have extra leaders but it would make sense to have CSM in the same fleet as abaddon., and they can't buy re-rolls so problem solved there.

Again, I am strongly for allowing all vessels the ability to purchase CSM crews and marks. It just seems right, you know? ::) ;)

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2013, 09:28:17 PM »
So, Chaos Ld8 Warmaster is now called "Lord" and the secondary commander position is taken up by CSMs which add +1Ld and the usual bonuses at +35pts? OR would they not add Ld at all and be less points so the option would be easier to get on more ships?

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2013, 09:41:23 PM »
More in favor of no ld or reroll option, dropped price (20-25pts maybe). Truth be told, that would be quite the drastic change, and if we are aiming for little changes its probably better to just have them as the new 35pt lords, but with no re-rolls and CSM rules.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2013, 09:53:47 PM »
I am not necessarily aiming for little changes, as I have explained before, but that is up to the community.  If we were only aiming for little changes, MMS Eldar would be of the table in a second, yet it is almost unanimously accepted.

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2013, 10:17:29 PM »
Good point; so lets rock and roll, my amigo!

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2013, 11:15:43 PM »
I would be in favor of 20pts for the boarding, H&R, and Planetary assault stuff. This would be much like the MMS Aspect Warriors upgrade.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 11:46:26 PM by afterimagedan »

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2013, 05:10:45 AM »
Edited proposal....

All Chaos Fleets...
LD 8 Lord 50pts
LD 9 Warmaster 75pts
-comes with 1 RR.

All Chaos Fleets...
Secondary Commanders just like Imperial Navy (30pts) but no RR allowed (they need MoT for that)

All Chaos Fleets...
CSM exactly how they used to be but allows the ship to have the SM Ld chart (8-10) and instead adds +1 to the Lord or Warmaster if on the same ship.

Chaos Marks (all 15pts, on any capitol ship, 1 mark per ship, squadrons may only have 1 type of mark):
-Mark of Tzeentch: the ship gets a RR to use on itself or squadron. A Mark of Tzeentch taken on a ship with a Lord or Warmaster costs 25pts and can be used like a regular RR. (only 1 per squadron)
-Mark of Nurgle: +1 hit on that ship.
-Mark of Slaanesh: Enemies within 15cm suffer -1 to their Ld value.
-Mark of Khorne: the ship doubles their boarding value.

Abaddon:
-150pts
-Built in CSM rules and Terminators (Black Legion) instead of original boarding rules and H&R rules
-original RR per turn rules.
-original "angry" rules
-original double boarding value
-original Ld 10
-no Warmasters allowed in the fleet
-Abaddon may not take additional RRs
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 05:35:13 AM by afterimagedan »

Offline ThaneAquilon

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2013, 05:42:16 PM »
I haven't been able to keep up to date, unfortunately, so when I get the chance I will give a more complete opinion, but something I'd like to reiterate: non-aligned fleets should be able to take marks. As it stands only Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, World Eaters and Death Guard..and the Black Legion? Can take marks. I think that restriction should be removed.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2013, 07:31:34 PM »
I agree, the non aligned fleets should be able to take any mark.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2013, 07:39:01 PM »
Which chaos fleet cannot take marks? Incursion can, 13th can, all the chaos god fleets can take their respective marks.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Chaos
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2013, 10:23:23 PM »
In Armada only World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Black Legion CSM can take Marks all others are prohibited.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.