BFG:R Chaos

[Bessemer]

deffo on the battleships, chaos need the extra variety in that field. Also in favour of the light cruisers, I know there's been some opposition to these though. Don't see the prob myself.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I think people are just wary of anything that doesnt have a model, the Chaos CL are so easy to make that shouldnt really be an issue.

[afterimagedan]

True, same with the battleships. They are made from the basic Desolator kit.

[horizon]

Just be aware that purists will slate the inclusion of Chaos Light Cruisers. Just like they burned the Book of Nemesis.

[afterimagedan]

Those purists can come and vote and make their voices heard!

[afterimagedan]

Ok, so the vote is up for including the 7 different Chaos ships we talked about.

There are two things that come to mind that we need to vote on before we can vote to close the Chaos document:
1. Daemon Ships (what should we do about them?)
2. Chaos Fleet Lists (which to include, and which list has what)

I think it would be best to bring all the specific Chaos gods into one list and restrict it to one god at a time.
Here are the lists I would like to see:
-13th Crusade (with some Mark of Chaos Undivided options and Abaddon)
-Chaos Incurstion Fleet (representing pirates and chaos worshipping traitors)
-Chaos Space Marine Fleet (mostly CSM stuff, kind of like where AndrewChristlieb is going with his list)
-Chaos Marked Fleets (basically, a list integrating the chaos gods' lists to make it more condensed)
-Daemon List

Thoughts?

[Brethren]

Damn... I was almost finished with my post and then the forum 'asks' me to login again. Now my text got lost in the warp. Here we go again.

First of all, I'd like to say that I really liked the old BFG:R lists, because they both felt 'right' and 'different' from each other.
Here are some random ideas put in order:

13th Black Crusade

• all battleships, grand cruisers, heavy cruisers and cruisers
• no light cruisers
• Blackstone Fortress available
• Daemon ships as reserves
• CSM available
• all Marks of Chaos available (maybe only if Abaddon is around or if the fleet commander is 'undivided')

Chaos Incursion Fleet

• only Despoiler and Desolator battleships
• all grand cruisers, heavy cruisers, cruisers, light cruisers
• escorts and light cruisers are requirements for cruisers as in BFG:R
• Renegade Imperial Ships (as in FAQ 2010)
• 0-1 CSM Strike Cruiser (Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment )
• no Daemon ships as reserves
• no Blackstone Fortress
• restricted access to CSM
• restricted access to Marks of Chaos (like ships with a Commander or CSM)

Marked Chaos Fleet

• I would basically make this a add-on to the 13th Crusade list.
• all capital ships have to get the same Mark
• add the unique ships
• maybe add some nifty power according to each Mark (see AndrewChristlieb's list)
• lift the reserve restriction on Daemon Ships to 2:1

Daemon Fleet

• You really want to give those nasty things a list? I don't know if they actually need one.
• I'd be happy to get them as reserves to other fleets.

On the other hand I strongly support AndrewChristlieb'S approach to a CSM Fleet. I'm not sure what would make them different to a 13th Crusade list, though.

Feel free to (ab)use these ideas in any way you want. [/list][/list][/list][/list]

/edit: Something's wrong with this list-function.

[afterimagedan]

I'm with you Brethren. I think your overview is the way I would like to see it, then adding the CSM list and either fixing or dropping a.daemon list. My problem is this: what's the downside to the 13th crusade list? No light cruisers isn't enough.

[Brethren]

My problem is this: what's the downside to the 13th crusade list? No light cruisers isn't enough.

That's a tough one. I can't think of any additional ship restrictions.

We could make up a rule about leadership difficulties. As the crusades consist of a lot of warbands that not always 'serve the cause' willingly, things could get messy if their common ground (here Warlord) leaves the battlespace.
Warbands and their part of the fleet could just disengage or try to disengage when crippled, lose/gain Ld... or just keep on fighting.

P.S.: The Marked Fleet List shouldn't have such a drawback. Though, it would also fit to an Incursion Fleet.

P.P.S.: The CSM List should either have an option to take Thunderhawks or be entirely restricted to Thunderhawks.

[horizon]

Why downfalls? Is there something wrong with the official lists (eg rulebook + armada)?

I say no to a specific daemon list. If someone wants to make all his vessels a daemon ship that's fine but a specific list is bot so cool.

On the single mark in the marked Chaos list: why? A Lord can have two marks (Abaddon has all/undivided). Chaos Gods work together.

Rename CMS cruiser to Renegade Strike Cruiser, Strike Cruiser tells me it is Marine, Renegade that it is against the Imperium. Not all renegade Marines fall to Chaos.

Or should we do a seperate Renegade fluff-list optional idea thing of sorts?

[afterimagedan]

Why downfalls? Is there something wrong with the official lists (eg rulebook + armada)?

I say no to a specific daemon list. If someone wants to make all his vessels a daemon ship that's fine but a specific list is bot so cool.

On the single mark in the marked Chaos list: why? A Lord can have two marks (Abaddon has all/undivided). Chaos Gods work together.

Rename CMS cruiser to Renegade Strike Cruiser, Strike Cruiser tells me it is Marine, Renegade that it is against the Imperium. Not all renegade Marines fall to Chaos.

Or should we do a seperate Renegade fluff-list optional idea thing of sorts?

I like this. The thought about downfalls or disadvantages is this: if the 13th crusade has not/very small downsides, why play any other list if it has everything?

[horizon]

Because some people are story driven players?

Perhaps the changes must be in command and not in vessels?

[afterimagedan]

True, but if we were all just story driven players, we could lump them all into one list.

[Brethren]

I like this. The thought about downfalls or disadvantages is this: if the 13th crusade has not/very small downsides, why play any other list if it has everything?

I have to agree. The 13th Crusade doesn't need drawbacks... just as is gets no 'extras'.

On the single mark in the marked Chaos list: why? A Lord can have two marks (Abaddon has all/undivided). Chaos Gods work together.

Maybe I was getting the wrong impression. I thought this list was about giving World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperors Children a little extra. All other 'Marked Fleets' could be represented simply by the 13th Crusade if you buy the Marks.

Rename CMS cruiser to Renegade Strike Cruiser, Strike Cruiser tells me it is Marine, Renegade that it is against the Imperium. Not all renegade Marines fall to Chaos.

Or should we do a seperate Renegade fluff-list optional idea thing of sorts?

I think the Incursion Fleet is probably the best way to represent a renegade fleet.
As with the Strike Cruiser you're right. Renegade Strike Cruiser sounds better and is more flexible... with or without actual Marines.

I think of the Incursion Fleet like this: 13th Crusade + Extras (Light Cruisers, Renegade Ships) + Restrictions (Requirements for Cruisers)
This way it's the Renegades list that differs from the 13th Crusade basis, not the other way around.

[afterimagedan]

What extras does it not get?

I think Incursion fleet and the Rebel fleet can be in the same list.

Also, why give those specific chapters bonuses over other Chaos chapters? I think the Marked fleets should generally just be chaos factions loyal to specific gods.

I agree, Renegade Strike Cruiser is the best way to represent it.