BFG:R Chaos

[afterimagedan]

A few things:
-I don't think we should cap how any cruisers a fleet can take.
-I don't think that just because we have a Mark of Khorne fleet that we should limit the types of cruisers it can get because we want to pigeon hole Khorne fleets into a particular play style. The marks themselves already do that to some degree.
-When you say that we basically have multiple 13th crusade lists, you are only really referring to which ships can be taken and not the differences of marks, renegade stuff, CSM, etc. I would recommend going back to the thread where we talked through the differences the fleets have.
-Sig, f there is enough of a push for another vote on the light cruisers, then get some people together and call for a vote. Sorry that you discount the entire project because something you don't like is in it. 

[Duke]

I would recommend going back to the thread where we talked through the differences the fleets have.

This advice is a little problematic in general. I suggested a few months ago that we start cataloging what is discussed and where it is discussed because there's enough discourse and information on this forum to fill a few books. I've tried tracing back multiple times changes and their conversations, and have found it incredibly difficult and time consuming. On some points, I never found the discussion, and thus never found the reason behind the changes in BFG:R, and the earlier FAQ2010.

Regardless: I really like the idea; Arminger, you've identified the interesting nuances behind Imperial list composition that I wasn't completely aware of. Thanks for starting with those two lists. The thing with the God Fleets is that there's little besides the two purchasable bonuses each fleet gets to warrant those lists spelling out which ship is available to what list. The four pages regarding those lists could be condensed into a few paragraphs in the PDF, as so much is the same. FAQ2010 also had that issue, albeit more compact. The god lists could be more tailored to what characterizes the style by which the gods and their followers work.

The Pleasure Fleet would be the hardest IMO to define.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

While I agree in principle to tailoring the lists somewhat to produce differently themed fleets, and indeed agree with some of the choices you have indicated, I can't help but feel that any attempt at building a proper Chaos list is somewhat hampered by the inclusion of Chaos light cruisers. Seriously, these things make the entire BFG:R project seem like a joke, let alone the Chaos lists.

Don't take them... problem solved really. They aren't required, nor are they so awesomely good that they are a must take IMO.

And fluffwise, in a way it makes sense for Chaos to have light cruisers, albiet very few of them. Since they are for the most part suppossed to be old IN vessels, and the IN uses light cruisers, it stands to reason there would have been some light cruiser classes in the style of vessel now primarily used by Chaos.

As for the God specific fleets, Armiger did have some interesting points and I would be open to developing it further, but I don't think the work done so far isn't bad either.

As for what dan said about pigeon holing- You could still create a all khorne fleet without limitations using the main list, albiet minus a special rule or two. Think of it more like Battlefleet Bakka or Corribra. They limit ship selection to encourage specific playstyles.

[afterimagedan]

The IN fleets have restrictions based on history revolving around location. The chaos fleets don't work like that. Why restrict what a khorne loyal fleet can take when there is no precedent for it lore? 13th crusade is supposed to be a congregation of a bunch of groups. Renegade fleets need to be varied because it represents renegade fleets from all over the place. It makes more sense to not limit ships but to have different restrictions and benefits on the surrounding things like renegades and marks and CSM.

[Bessemer]

Sorry to go off topic a little, but was is the main opposition to the inclusion of CL's for Chaos fleets? Is it as simple as they didn't get them in the BBB? 'Cause if it is, then by the same logic IN shouldn't get Grand Cruisers...but no-one flies off the handle about the inclusion of the Vengeance series for IN fleets.

Gothmog already stated that it makes sense that Chaos should get light cruisers. Every other fleet has them (official or otherwise). That's what doesn't make sense to me. If it's the stats then I second the proposition of a second round of discussion/voting to fix the issue.

I'm a relative newcomer here, was this a flashpoint in the past? I'm not rifling through years worth of threads to find it, so if anyone can give me the rundown, either post here or PM me and bring me up to speed on that side of the argument.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

The IN fleets have restrictions based on history revolving around location. The chaos fleets don't work like that. Why restrict what a khorne loyal fleet can take when there is no precedent for it lore? 13th crusade is supposed to be a congregation of a bunch of groups. Renegade fleets need to be varied because it represents renegade fleets from all over the place. It makes more sense to not limit ships but to have different restrictions and benefits on the surrounding things like renegades and marks and CSM.

Lore wise there is no precedent (other than more assault craft prossibly) and I am fine with leaving it as is, but game wise it may be interesting to structure different fleets for different playstyles, just for the sake of diversity. That is the real reason there are multiple IN fleets, and the fluff is just made to match. BUT this is just an entertaining thought to me, not neccessarily a critical must do one.

[horizon]

Nice Necro....

Light Cruisers for Chaos: I ain't a fan in principle. But, it is not impossible to have a Dauntless, Endeavour, Endurance, Defiant to go Renegade.
Also: with the Slaughter around, who needs a light cruiser in the Chaos fleet.
Also: why add CL to the Chaos list? It is a gap-hole filler. Why fill all gaps?*

The list revamping:
Dunno. I will stick to my '99 Renegade fleet layout.
But taking out a vessel here and there won't change a lot in my opinion. People will start to mix in Imperial vessel for example because they like to do so.


* Gap filling: this is an issue I see to a little extend within BFG:R and evem more so if ASC2.0 will be there as an add-on: all gaps will be filled with many variant options.

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Nice Necro....

Light Cruisers for Chaos: I ain't a fan in principle. But, it is not impossible to have a Dauntless, Endeavour, Endurance, Defiant to go Renegade.
Also: with the Slaughter around, who needs a light cruiser in the Chaos fleet.
Also: why add CL to the Chaos list? It is a gap-hole filler. Why fill all gaps?*

The list revamping:
Dunno. I will stick to my '99 Renegade fleet layout.
But taking out a vessel here and there won't change a lot in my opinion. People will start to mix in Imperial vessel for example because they like to do so.


* Gap filling: this is an issue I see to a little extend within BFG:R and evem more so if ASC2.0 will be there as an add-on: all gaps will be filled with many variant options.

I feel in a post-GW environment, gap filling is acceptable as there will be no more official growth, so allowing hobbyists to pursue any and all avenues is the best way to keep the game fresh. And it would be by permission only with ASC 2.0 at least. Tournaments would likely not utilize it.

[Khar]

If I may derail thread a little more:

I'm also against existance of chaos light cruisers. If they really want one, there's an option for a CSM strike cruiser. They just don't really need CL's. There's nothing chaos fleet can't do without them.

So, apart from treating them as a little flavour, there's one use of them that makes any reasonable opponent hate them with burning passion: Light Daemon Cruiser. Cheap enough to never materialize and just provide stable -1 Ld for enemy ordnance ships, fast and mobile enough to make their escape impossible and impervious to any harm. True, Slaanesh Daemonbombing got cut down a bit with marks not working while spectral, but this thing is cheap enough to be worth it even with simple -1 Ld. And if you get two of them, because why not, they're cheap, we're back to crippling ordnance heavy fleets.

And if they're marked and do materialize.. well, think of one with Siren's Summon. Yes, it will probably die right after materialising, but well, that's one enemy turn guaranteed to be ruined. And if it manages to survive that one turn, crucial enemy ship is without orders for two full turns.

So, yeah, maybe we should discuss moving chaos CL's to ASC?

[afterimagedan]

Gothmog, BFG:R is only by permission too.

Horizon, by your logic, we can pretty remove escorts from the chaos list also. I do see your point about not having to fill gaps but its hard to get around Bessemer's logic.

Khar, yes that setup for LC daemon ships is nasty, but just because you found a good use for light cruisers doesn't mean we should get rid of them!

[Khar]

I don't have anything against good setups. This one, however, is more than good: Enemy can't do a single thing to counter it. You just have to live with immortal ship chasing your carriers and reducing their Ld.

Actually, I'd be perfectly fine with chaos CL's if they couldn't take Daemonship upgrade...

[AndrewChristlieb]

I thought we put in that they couldnt take Daemon upgrades. They make it really easy for Chaos to go top heavy too. And the Crapschematic torp issue.

[Duke]

To me they represent tinkering, the product of busy hands neglecting real balance and the needs of the other fleets. Where there is a painful gap, then I'm for additional ships being written into BFG:R. The Necrons Cartouche and Reaver were needed for a properly completed fleet list, and I find their addition welcome.

But adding ships to either the IN or Chaos? For the most part, keep them to ASC please.

[horizon]

Horizon, by your logic, we can pretty remove escorts from the chaos list also. I do see your point about not having to fill gaps but its hard to get around Bessemer's logic.

Ehm. No. Chaos was created with escorts so that was no gap intended.

[Bessemer]

If people want to place them in the ASC, I don't have a problem. The CL's in BFGR were from the BON, and the Pagan never made the jump. In fact in BoN you could only take 1 CL for Chaos due to rarity. Don't remember that being brought up during discussion, may have missed it.

I just didn't want to see them axed completly.