BFG:R Chaos

[ThaneAquilon]

As a quick note, Daemon Ships shold be useable in both fleets more freely. Unless we're talking heresy periode games, Chaos has always been able to use Daemons pretty commonly.

[horizon]

Daemon ships are crap. Lets rework this.

Within the Gothic sector: perhaps the power of the eye was to little to manifest daemonships.

[ThaneAquilon]

Sure, they can't take them freely. But how about improved reserving? Like having a Hero (eldar hero, that is) making it 2 normal cruisers:1 Daemon Ship, without needing a special leader, obviously.

[ThaneAquilon]

Also let the Non-aligned leagions take marks and the Vengeful Spirit, that way people can make other kinds of fleets, but still benefit fully from the Chaos rules.

[ThaneAquilon]

Hey Dan, in the profile for Devastations, one bay has swifwings, the other bay has the two other AC.

[afterimagedan]

Hey Dan, in the profile for Devastations, one bay has swifwings, the other bay has the two other AC.

Fixed.

[afterimagedan]

It's time to start these babies up.

Andrewchristlieb and I were discussing the things we thing we need to vote on for Chaos and here is the list we came up with:

-Include Relictor, Desecrator, Cerberus, Heretic, Unbeliever, Schismatic, Havoc or not.
-Commander and Warmaster proposed pricing and ld8/9 or ld+1/+2?
-CSM proposed profile/prices
-Abbadon fixes and points
-Rerolls and prices
-Marks and their pricing
-Any changes to the fleet lists?
-Any changes to the specific named ships that go in the Chaos gods' lists?
-Daemon changes?

[AndrewChristlieb]

The commanders should be pretty cut and paste. Just setting down the leadership 8/9 or +1/+2.

The re-roll question is a straight yes or no as to wither they can purchase them the same as Imperials: upto 3@ 25pts each.

The Marks should be a straight forward setting of the price and a question of if the abilities from the Powers PDF should remain (with or without any modifications, these should of course remain as options only for their specific fleet lists: Khorne Bezerkers etc.)

CSM is really just a question of wither they should not receive the same benifit as the SM seeing as theyre  paying the same price.

Abbadons much the same, hes always been pretty expensive but in light of the other fleet commanders costs being reduced its doubly so now.

Daemons may require a bit more work but these are the core questions remaining that I have seen.

[Brethren]

-Include Relictor, Desecrator, Cerberus, Heretic, Unbeliever, Schismatic, Havoc or not.

• The Cerberus class is the Inferno class cruiser from FAQ2010 and therefore should be included. Can't say why the name got changed.
• The additional battleships would be nice, since they spice things up a bit without shifting things out of balance.
• Same goes for light cruisers, with the exception that they should not be a prerequisite for battleships (or grand cruisers). May sound weird and different to the "0-1" or "only 2 in 500pts" restrictions, but it is still a restriction.
• As for the Havoc raider... it fills a gap between "really cheap" and "quite expensive". Include it.

I'm playing a traitor fleet... bit obvious, isn't it? 
Additionally I'd like to propose that the rules for "Renegade Imperial Ships" (FAQ2010 p.23) return, especially in the case that only a few or none of the additional ships above appear in the final fleet lists. It's not that big of a deal and provides rules for all those boarded and stolen ships out there.

The advocatus diaboli rests his case for now. 

So long,
Brethren

[Talos]

The marks definitely need pricing; they should not cost more than 15-20pts a pop IMO.

There is a lot of opposition as far as I know to chaos light cruisers, but lets settle it by vote.

Leaders should be the same as imperial, arguably because they are just old imperials but mostly because leadership streamlining is a good thing. It should be one of the simplest parts of the game.

C:SM should cost less than loyalists, for 3 reasons:
1) They are commonly found in larger groups, so it should be made possible to run a C:SM fleet
2) Certain Legions have to be aligned: we are looking at a combined upgrade cost of 50+pts a vessel right now. A murder with C:SM and a mark is not the equivalent of an armageddon battlecruiser in any way.
3) Due to their racial benefits, chaos benefits slightly less from C:SM rules than their imperial counterparts.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well I agree with the Marks being repriced. Although I have been opposed to the +1/+2 option in the past I have been feeling it a lot more lately, if just for the variety. Soemthing like Lords at +1 (max of 20 pts and Warmaster at +2 (max of 9) 40 pts. The lower price than Imperials offsets the chance of a lower leadership while the randomness represents the... chaos of it all.

I think the CSM would be acceptable with a cost reduction but really 35 points would be accaptable if they only received the same benifits as SM.

[afterimagedan]

Proposed Changes by me and AndrewChristlieb:

All Chaos Fleets...
LD +1 Warmaster 50pts
LD +2 Warmaster 75pts
-comes with 1 RR.

All Chaos Fleets...
Chaos Lords +1 LD at 30pts
-comes with no RR, but add one at +15pts

Chaos Marks (all 15pts):
-Mark of Tzeentch: the ship gets a RR to use on itself or squadron. A Mark of Tzeentch on a Warmaster costs 25pts and can be used like a regular RR.
-Mark of Nurgle: +1 hit on that ship.
-Mark of Slaanesh: Enemies within 15cm suffer -1 to their Ld value.
-Mark of Khorne: the ship doubles their boarding value.

All Chaos Fleets...
CSM :
-loses the +1 to Ld but instead, allows that ship to use the Space Marine Ld chart.

Abaddon:
-150pts
-Built in CSM rules and Terminators (Black Legion) instead of original boarding rules and H&R rules
-original RR per turn rules.
-original "angry" rules
-original double boarding value
-original Ld 10
-no Warmasters allowed in the fleet
-Abaddon may not take additional RRs

Any takers? Would you guys like to vote on this?

[Talos]

Seems really good and clear; cheers to the Danster and the Chrisanator. Question: so CSM crews are still 35pts? Still seems pretty steep, especially when combined marks. If someone wanted an aligned chaos fleet they would be paying a lot points (50pts a ship!). May as well just shoot my plans of a world eater fleet in the face

But eh, otherwise really awesome. 

[afterimagedan]

I would like to hear some more about people's thoughts on CSM. Right now, you can only take CSM on ships with an admiral and same with marks. I think it would be nice to be able to create fleets like your Worlds Waters example, but we need to find the right balance and points for it.

[AndrewChristlieb]

CSM can be taken on any capitol ship currently and they ahould continue to be allowed to. They offer a better leadership bonus than a Chaos Lord +++ so why should they be reduced in price? This is also the same price that standard marines pay to take a Chaos ship. All in all i think CSM are a steal.