BFG:R Chaos

[afterimagedan]

13th Black Crusade
Pros: All ships, all marks in one fleet, Abaddon, Planet Killer, CSM, Daemon ships, BSFs, opposing chaos god marks may be taken if a warmaster is taken and given the mark of chaos undivided.
Cons: If a mark is taken, it may only be on 1 ship/squadron in the fleet.

-Should they be able to use both types of Blackstone Fortresses? (fluff-masters?)
-Should we limit CSMs? If so, how should it look? 1 per 500pts? (I think Andrew is right about this, there should be some sort of limit. Ships that would show up for a crusade would not ALL have CSM on them. Also, they are 35pts each in this list as opposed to the CSM list being worked on)


Incursion/Marked
Pros: All ships (no named or PK), much more loose Renegade options? (this list needs some help, maybe a more useful renegade option would make this a hefty perk for taking this list), 0-1 CSM strike cruiser.
Cons: limited CSM, EITHER Marks only on Warmaster, Lords and CSM. (Lords and CSM only one Mark), OR, pick a mark, all ships can take no mark or that mark only. the previous sentence is there so we can integrate the Marked and Incursion lists because they can choose one or the other way of using marks. No BSFs.

-How should renegades look? I think the -1 Ld is alright if their is a secondary commander that can be placed on their ship (which would make it Ld . I was thinking it could look like this:
 

• "For every 750pts in a Chaos fleet, you may purchase 0-6 Imperial Navy Escorts AND/OR 1 cruiser of up to 185 points from the Segmentum Obscurus Bastion Fleet or the Segmentum Solar Armageddon Sector Fleet lists. Imperial Navy escorts need not be in a single squadron and may be interspersed throughout other Chaos escort squadrons if desired. These vessels do not count as reserves. Renegade cruisers subtract 1 from their randomly determined leadership value."
  

-1 CSM per 750pts.
-Renegade SCs come with built-in CSM.


Chaos Traitor Legion Fleet (CSM)
Pros: cheap CSMs, very accessible marks (pick a mark. all ships can take no mark or that mark only), cheap CSM warmaster with high LD, amazing LD
Cons: VERY limited ship options.

• Still being worked on.

-1 SC per 750pts? This option would allow for something similar looking to the Astral Claws after falling to Chaos.

Anything else before we start voting on the lists?  For Chaos, all we have left are lists and Daemon ships.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Ok so thoughts on fleet lists:

Gothic sector list just like the Imperial list we should retain one list that is identical to the one found in the BBB with the price adjustments.

Black Crusade list this would represent a major Chaos offensive like the 13th, should include most options.

Incursion list representing smaller scale forces spread through out Imperial space, less strict on Marks like the Gothic sector list and has different ship options than 13th. Maybe allow something similar to Armageddons 1bc/ cc.

CSM list maybe. Kind of on the fence as to if this is really needed...

[afterimagedan]

Ok so thoughts on fleet lists:

Gothic sector list just like the Imperial list we should retain one list that is identical to the one found in the BBB with the price adjustments.

Why is this needed? You will be able to get the same exact stuff with the Incursion/Marked list.

Black Crusade list this would represent a major Chaos offensive like the 13th, should include most options.

Yep, I think it is that way as it is listed previously.

Incursion list representing smaller scale forces spread through out Imperial space, less strict on Marks like the Gothic sector list and has different ship options than 13th. Maybe allow something similar to Armageddons 1bc/ cc.

The renegade stuff will add to that sort of feel.  That and the SC option will allow for some different ship choices and a few less options as well (PK and BSF mainly).  What do you mean by 1bc/cc?

CSM list maybe. Kind of on the fence as to if this is really needed...

There seems to be a lot of support for this.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well, it is Battlefleet Gothic and the gothic sector lists should remain as the grounding force.

Armageddon can take one battlecruiser per cruiser instead of one/two. Im not saying that Chaos should have a copy of that but something similar would be a nice way to further distance this list from the Black list.

[afterimagedan]

Well, it is Battlefleet Gothic and the gothic sector lists should remain as the grounding force.

Armageddon can take one battlecruiser per cruiser instead of one/two. Im not saying that Chaos should have a copy of that but something similar would be a nice way to further distance this list from the Black list.

True, this is Battlefleet Gothic, but it doesn't hold anyone back from saying that the Gothic Sector fleet is an Incursion fleet. 

As to your other point, I'm up for hearing some thoughts on that! At this point, I am content with the distinctions.

[afterimagedan]

Armageddon can take one battlecruiser per cruiser instead of one/two. Im not saying that Chaos should have a copy of that but something similar would be a nice way to further distance this list from the Black list.

What if this is the Gothic sector's bonus?

[afterimagedan]

We are right at the end of Chaos stuff. I was thinking we could make the lists like this (similar to how they were a few weeks ago):

Gothic Sector List: same as BBB with updated points

Incursion List: Pros: All ships (no named or PK), 0-1 CSM strike cruiser (with built in CSM).
  Cons: 1 CSM per 750pts, Marks only on Warmaster, Lords, and CSM. The previous sentence is there so we can integrate the Marked and Incursion lists because they can choose one or the other way of using marks. No BSFs.

"For every 750pts in a Chaos fleet, you may purchase 0-6 Imperial Navy Escorts AND/OR 1 cruiser of up to 185 points from the Segmentum Obscurus Bastion Fleet or the Segmentum Solar Armageddon Sector Fleet lists. Imperial Navy escorts need not be in a single squadron and may be interspersed throughout other Chaos escort squadrons if desired. These vessels do not count as reserves. Renegade cruisers subtract 1 from their randomly determined leadership value."

Black Crusade: Pros: All ships, all marks in one fleet, Abaddon, Planet Killer, CSM, Daemon ships, all BSFs, opposing chaos god marks may be taken if a warmaster is taken and given the mark of chaos undivided.
  Cons: If a mark is taken, it may only be on 1 ship/squadron in the fleet per type.

Marked Lists It would be nice to just integrate the 4 different powers of chaos lists. It would be nicely organized, but either way, let's just keep them how they are and make the changes we need. These are the lists that should get the marks at a discount like we had planned for the "marked" list. That should be their main bonus overall. They can take cheap marks and CSM on all ships. All we need to do is change the point costs of stuff and remove the specific chapter references like "Thousand Sons," etc.

Basically, the original lists will all still exist but with smal tweaks. The Incursion list will be the new one.

[AndrewChristlieb]

We are right at the end of Chaos stuff. I was thinking we could make the lists like this (similar to how they were a few weeks ago):

Gothic Sector List: same as BBB with updated points As it should be

Incursion List: Pros: All ships (no named or PK), 0-1 CSM strike cruiser (with built in CSM).
  Cons: 1 CSM per 750pts, Marks only on Warmaster, Lords, and CSM. The previous sentence is there so we can integrate the Marked and Incursion lists because they can choose one or the other way of using marks. No BSFs.

"For every 750pts in a Chaos fleet, you may purchase 0-6 Imperial Navy Escorts AND/OR 1 cruiser of up to 185 points from the Segmentum Obscurus Bastion Fleet or the Segmentum Solar Armageddon Sector Fleet lists. Imperial Navy escorts need not be in a single squadron and may be interspersed throughout other Chaos escort squadrons if desired. These vessels do not count as reserves. Renegade cruisers subtract 1 from their randomly determined leadership value."

This sounds ok, I think the Strike cruiser option would work well as presented in the Inquisition list.

Black Crusade: Pros: All ships, all marks in one fleet, Abaddon, Planet Killer, CSM, Daemon ships, all BSFs, opposing chaos god marks may be taken if a warmaster is taken and given the mark of chaos undivided.
  Cons: If a mark is taken, it may only be on 1 ship/squadron in the fleet per type.

So you can only take one instance of each of the marks per fleet or you can take as many of each that you can afford but only one per commander/CSM?

Marked Lists It would be nice to just integrate the 4 different powers of chaos lists. It would be nicely organized, but either way, let's just keep them how they are and make the changes we need. These are the lists that should get the marks at a discount like we had planned for the "marked" list. That should be their main bonus overall. They can take cheap marks and CSM on all ships. All we need to do is change the point costs of stuff and remove the specific chapter references like "Thousand Sons," etc.

Sounds like a plan

Basically, the original lists will all still exist but with smal tweaks. The Incursion list will be the new one.

[afterimagedan]

In the inquisition fleet, they can take a GK strike cruiser 1/500pts. Is this what you mean?  With the limit on CSM 1/750pts, would this include the CSM that come with the strike cruisers?

As far as the powers of chaos fleets, I guess the marks wouldn't need to be cheaper than they are now, considering they are cheap in BFG:R.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I wasnt thinking about the csm limit actually but ya it could be restricted to to same 1/750. I was really thinking that it would be nice to be able to field a "csm" fleet that had recently turned, a handful of strike cruisers and maybe a barge.

[afterimagedan]

So strike cruiser at 1/500pts, also, if a Warmaster is taken, it can have 0-1 barge? That may be one of its biggest bonuses: the ability to use limited SM vessels. Let's tip the balance a little more with this as far as marks go and make it so that the only marks that can be taken are on Warmasters, Lords, and Secondary Commanders. That would counterbalance it nicely with the nice SM stuff that would be added by this and make it harder to use marks.

Side note: This Incursion list is shaping up to be quite the renegade/traitor guard type list. I like how it's a chaos list where you can use some SM stuff and some IN stuff but there will be very little marks, if any. This is looking cool.    It could play the part of a newly turned SM fleet with Chaos mortals who have tagged along for the fun.  It could also be just a huge renegade force... 

Side note 2: Should we call this the Chaos Renegade list? That seems more fitting than the word "incursion." Plus, we will already have a Gothic Sector Incursion list.

[horizon]

Hey,
agreed on renegade list. "Like"

[Brethren]

Chaos Renegades? Copy that. 

Let's tip the balance a little more with this as far as marks go and make it so that the only marks that can be taken are on Warmasters, Lords, and Secondary Commanders. That would counterbalance it nicely with the nice SM stuff that would be added by this and make it harder to use marks.

We can do that.

So strike cruiser at 1/500pts, also, if a Warmaster is taken, it can have 0-1 barge? That may be one of its biggest bonuses: the ability to use limited SM vessels.

I wonder if the 'Renegade Strike Cruiser' needs to be mentioned separately. If the complete 'Segmentum Solar' List is availiable with our 'Imperial Renegades'-rule, you can simplay acquire a Strike Cruiser that way.

On the other hand... how about keeping the Strike Cruisers' (0-1) restriction in the first place, and set it to (1/500) only if the Warmaster himself is a Marine.
(=> as in "has to buy CSM for his ship" regarding the text that says that if CSM are present on a ship, it is assumed that the captain is a CSM as well)


I've got some concerns about the SM Barge. It would add a 6+ prow to a chaos fleet, figuratively speaking. I'm not sure how such a beast would affect the balancing against other fleets.

[afterimagedan]

Chaos Renegades? Copy that. 

So strike cruiser at 1/500pts, also, if a Warmaster is taken, it can have 0-1 barge? That may be one of its biggest bonuses: the ability to use limited SM vessels.

I wonder if the 'Renegade Strike Cruiser' needs to be mentioned separately. If the complete 'Segmentum Solar' List is availiable with our 'Imperial Renegades'-rule, you can simplay acquire a Strike Cruiser that way.

On the other hand... how about keeping the Strike Cruisers' (0-1) restriction in the first place, and set it to (1/500) only if the Warmaster himself is a Marine.
(=> as in "has to buy CSM for his ship" regarding the text that says that if CSM are present on a ship, it is assumed that the captain is a CSM as well)

I think that's an awesome idea. We could just have it so that you can only take SCs by the renegade rule. BUT, if you put CSM on your Warmaster's ship, you will be allowed to take SCs 1/500 and 0-1 Barge.

I've got some concerns about the SM Barge. It would add a 6+ prow to a chaos fleet, figuratively speaking. I'm not sure how such a beast would affect the balancing against other fleets.

I'm not worried about it, really. It will add a different dynamic to how that particular Chaos fleet will work. That will have its own tactics developed. I think it's a good thing!

So...
Incursion List: Pros: All ships (no named or PK), If the Warmaster's ship is given CSM, it is assumed he is a CSM. Strike Cruisers can now be taken 1/500pts and 0-1 Battle Barge can be taken.
  Cons: 1 CSM per 750pts, Marks only on Warmaster, Lords, and CSM. The previous sentence is there so we can integrate the Marked and Incursion lists because they can choose one or the other way of using marks. No BSFs.

"For every 750pts in a Chaos fleet, you may purchase 0-6 Imperial Navy Escorts AND/OR 1 cruiser of up to 185 points from the Segmentum Obscurus Bastion Fleet or the Segmentum Solar Armageddon Sector Fleet lists. Imperial Navy escorts need not be in a single squadron and may be interspersed throughout other Chaos escort squadrons if desired. These vessels do not count as reserves. Renegade cruisers subtract 1 from their randomly determined leadership value."

[afterimagedan]

Chaos Lists:

Gothic Sector List: Same as BBB with updated points.

Black Crusade: All ships (including the named ships and BSFs and Planet Killer), all marks in one fleet, Abaddon, CSM on any capital ship (usual), Daemon ships, opposing chaos god marks may be taken if a warmaster is taken and given the Mark of Chaos Undivided.

-Mark of Chaos Undivided (25pts): May only be taken on a Lord or Warmaster. Once per game, the Lord or Warmaster may expend the Mark of Chaos Undivided and allow the entire fleet to use their leadership value for the rest of the player's turn.

Marks: "If a mark is taken, it may only be on 1 ship/squadron in the fleet per type. Chaos Marks may be taken on any capital ship but only 1 ship/squadron may take a mark of a specific Chaos God for the entire fleet.

Chaos Renegade List:
-All ships (no named or PK or BSFs)
-If the Warmaster's ship is given CSM, it is assumed he is a CSM. Strike Cruisers can now be taken 1/500pts and 0-1 Battle Barge can be taken is the Warmaster is a CSM.
-1 CSM per 750pts
-Marks only on Warmaster, Lords, and CSM.
Imperial Renegade Ships:
"For every 750pts in a Chaos fleet, you may purchase 0-6 Imperial Navy Escorts AND/OR 1 cruiser of up to 185 points from the Segmentum Obscurus Bastion Fleet or the Segmentum Solar Armageddon Sector Fleet lists. Imperial Navy escorts need not be in a single squadron and may be interspersed throughout other Chaos escort squadrons if desired. These vessels do not count as reserves. Renegade cruisers subtract 1 from their randomly determined leadership value."

Powers of Chaos Lists:
-same as they were except with updated costs
-Availability of taking fleet wide marks
-May take cheaper CSM on all ships (probably 25pts per ship instead of 35)
-Availability of the "Forces of Chaos" options


Any changes we need to make to this? Also, do we need to change anything about the "Forces of Chaos" upgrades in the "Powers" lists?