BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus

[AndrewChristlieb]

The second version sounds pretty reasonable. So whos up for doing a few dozen test runs .

So with that in mind how about the pricing for these being rolled back into the ships cost and we give them all the option to pick their random gift for +5 points/ship? That would put our pricing back to the FAQ prices if im thinking right.

So pool for say 6 ships:

2 pay extra to choose
1 rolls a 6 for leadership

You would roll 4 random gifts (for the four that didnt opt to auto choose for extra points.
Add in the one choosen gift for rolling a 6 for leadership to its ship only
Assign from there.
Assign the 2 you paid for to their ships only
Assign any commanders benifit to his ship only
Discard any additional.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Plasma boosted batteries should be amended to say that all Admech ships with 30cm weapons batteries may increase their range to 45cm for +10pts unless noted otherwise in the ships profile.

This takes the Tyrants new profile into account.

[afterimagedan]

Changes needing votes for Admech:
-Plasma boosted batteries should be amended to say that all Admech ships with 30cm weapons batteries may increase their range to 45cm for +10pts unless noted otherwise in the ships profile.
-Gift pool
  1. Roll leaderships
  2. Roll gifts
  3. And six rolled during leadership, pick an additional gift
  4. Assign gifts.
  5. Discard remaining gifts.

"Mechanicus capital ships must roll a D6 to determine a Gift of the Omnissiah to add a distribution pool. Vessels that rolled a 6 for leadership may change the result of one roll for a Gift of the Omnissiah to a result of their choosing before it is applied to a ship. Once the pool is determined, each capital ship must be given one Gift from the distribution pool. These improvements are already included in the point cost assigned in the Adeptus Mechanicus Fleet List. Re-roll any refit that is not applicable to the vessel."

Ok, we should talk about the point values for each ship class again and the +5 points to pick option. Also, I think the gifts could be boosted but slightly (like Andrew did) to make them a little more appealing, even if the overall point cost of the Admech ships are higher because of it.  Side not on Andrew's changes to gifts: I think Gyro Stabilized targeting matrix (GSTM) should just become the same thing as Tenacity from the Tyranids list (basically drop the +1ld to LO and just make batteries and lances unaffected on AAF, CtNH, and BR SOs.


Why don't we have secondary commanders have something to do with picking?

0-3 Commanders
Magos Juris (+1 Ld, Max 9). . . . . . 35 pts
Each Magos Juris may change the result of one roll for a Gift of the Omnissiah to a result of their choosing before it is applied to a ship.
Magos Juris may purchase a re-roll at the
following cost. This re-roll may only be used on their
vessel or a vessel within their own squadron.
One re-roll. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 pts

[Vaaish]

My only remaining concern: the balance concern of mine would be easily foxed of we made the existing options a little more scaled to a AWR , which seems undisputed the more powerful option.

I think it's far less powerful than people would want to believe. It's just as conditional as the other gifts most of the time, but it has the potential to be powerful... if you roll lots of 6's.

Ok, we should talk about the point values for each ship class again and the +5 points to pick option. Also, I think the gifts could be boosted but slightly (like Andrew did) to make them a little more appealing, even if the overall point cost of the Admech ships are higher because of it. 

I don't think paying points to pick an option is necessary. It kind of defeats what we were talking about and the cost isn't enough to make it a rare choice. The cost of a reroll to pick all the gifts in the fleet is a bit much. Leave the system as it is. I would also discourage boosting the point cost of AdMech ships higher than the base FAQ2010 prices. The fleet is already pricey and unforgiving because of the number of ships you usually end up fielding. Hulls almost always outweigh options in value. Elite ships are glass cannons most of the time especially when they are still just 2 shield 8 hit cruisers.

Why don't we have secondary commanders have something to do with picking?

What do we gain with secondary commanders? AdMech is an elite fleet I can't see ever justifying added expense for the minor bonus an adjunct commander would give. That's 40 points that could go towards and escort or another ship.

[afterimagedan]

Yet you argue that people seem to always pick AWR... So, if it's not that much better, you should instead be making the argument that your game group is just picking a gift because it looks shiny and not because it's better. But, it is better, and that's why everyone seems to want it the most, as Horizon also argues.

I don't think big changes to the gifts need to happen, just some. I don't think Andrew's changes are all that huge.

With this new method, I agree that we don't need a pay-to-pick option. I have been testing this out for an hour or so now and like how it works. I will have more to say on it a little later.

Secondary commanders would be like the secondary commanders that are options in the IN fleet now.

[afterimagedan]

I've been doing test runs for some time now with this fleet:
Battleship
4 cruisers
1 light cruiser

...with the rules written a few posts earlier by me. Basically, secondary commander allows you to alter a result to your choice, and a 6 allows you to alter a result to your choice.

Archmagos purchased (come with additional gift of choice to the battleship)
Secondary magos (alter a result)

For example:
roll leaderships, 1,2,3,3,5,6. (rolled for both commanders because of possible bridge smashed results).

Roll for gifts: 1,1,2,3,4,6.  Secondary magos and ld roll of a 6 allows you to alter two of them, so (assuming many will want AWR), change the 2 and 3 to 6s. So in this case, and statistically average, you can achieve 4 AWRs (if you want).

It may be interesting to instead have the secondary magos allow you to increase or decrease a gift roll by 1.

[horizon]

On the sixes rolled:
under current rules a rolled 6 lets the ship pick the upgrade it wants.

So, your idea doesn't change that. You just add that upgrade to the pool and add it back to the ship you rolled a 6 for and picked it for anyway (full circle logic)

But, for convenience sake, why not more easy:
Roll Ld for AdMech vessels
For every 6 pick an upgrade
Roll a d6 on gift table for remaining upgrades.

All upgrades in a pool to pick from.

So no remaining/discarded options.

Not a lot of change, but a bit more streamlined (in my opinion that is).

[afterimagedan]

You don't have to use it for that ship. That's the point that makes it not circular. Say you roll the upgrade you are looking for for the ship who rolled a 6 for leadership.  It would allow you to pick a result and apply it to another ship this way. I personally like this altered results version much more.

We could just go with the if you roll a 6, pick a gift and add it to the pool method. This would not replace the normally rolled result for that ship. Discard unused gifts.

"Roll a D6 for each capital ship. For every roll of a 6 when rolling for leadership and for every (secondary commander) chosen, alter the result of any of the gift results to any result of your choosing." That's really simple if you ask me.

[Vaaish]

Yet you argue that people seem to always pick AWR... So, if it's not that much better, you should instead be making the argument that your game group is just picking a gift because it looks shiny and not because it's better. But, it is better, and that's why everyone seems to want it the most, as Horizon also argues.

hehe, yes, because people DO always go for AWR. It's because it sounds the best of all the gifts and it's the easiest to use. Perception can go a long way towards making something popular even if the results don't always back it up. I believe if you feel inclined to go back over the posts I've been saying that. 

Secondary commanders would be like the secondary commanders that are options in the IN fleet now.

Yes, but IN is a cheaper fleet to start with, when you take an expensive fleet and add additional commanders it starts eating into the points you have available for hulls. I'm not seeing a good reason to take a secondary commander when it costs as much as a sword and I'll get rather more utility from that than the +1ld and a gift.

What purpose are these secondary commanders trying to fill and under what circumstances do you expect that people will use them?

[afterimagedan]

Yet you argue that people seem to always pick AWR... So, if it's not that much better, you should instead be making the argument that your game group is just picking a gift because it looks shiny and not because it's better. But, it is better, and that's why everyone seems to want it the most, as Horizon also argues.

hehe, yes, because people DO always go for AWR. It's because it sounds the best of all the gifts and it's the easiest to use. Perception can go a long way towards making something popular even if the results don't always back it up. I believe if you feel inclined to go back over the posts I've been saying that. 

So you want to institute a rule to fix their "perception?"

Secondary commanders would be like the secondary commanders that are options in the IN fleet now.

Yes, but IN is a cheaper fleet to start with, when you take an expensive fleet and add additional commanders it starts eating into the points you have available for hulls. I'm not seeing a good reason to take a secondary commander when it costs as much as a sword and I'll get rather more utility from that than the +1ld and a gift.

What purpose are these secondary commanders trying to fill and under what circumstances do you expect that people will use them?

Again, if you don't want to take it, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option. It's exactly the same thing as the gifts argument, Vaaish, you don't like something so you would like to impose those things on others. Just because you don't like that people take an Admech fleet with all AWR doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowable. Just because you don't want to take secondary commanders for the +1ld and choice of gift doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowable.

Personally, I think the Ork fleet is dumb and don't like it. You don't see me pushing for that to get removed. Personally, I would take a secondary commander for the leadership reasons as well as the gift choice.

I am trying to budge here and go with a more random method. I think the roll then apply thing is going to work out. If people want to have a secondary commander for +1ld and choice on a gift for 35pts for it, why not? You think it's too expensive, I think it's just right. Would you like to reduce the cost? The Admech fleet has much more limited options than the IN fleet. Adding this an an option to mirror an option that IN already has is a good thing.

[Vaaish]

So you want to institute a rule to fix their "perception?"

No, I'd be fine leaving the gifts as is. Changing the rules for the gifts is what amounts to instituting rules to fix perception.

Again, if you don't want to take it, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option....

I'm trying to get you to support your position when you add things to lists. Sub commanders in admech popped up seemingly out of the blue and the going theme seems to be we added it to one list why not all of them. You need to have a concept of how these commanders will provide benefit and be used within the structure of the fleet and I don't see that at the moment. I can't say more than "it's a bad idea" if I don't know your rationale for wanting them in the first place or what you are trying to accomplish by adding them. This is especially true when the rules you posted provide very little compelling reason to take them.

The Admech fleet has much more limited options than the IN fleet. Adding this an an option to mirror an option that IN already has is a good thing

Why is it a good thing? AdMech isn't IN. It doesn't play the same nor should it. It doesn't even have the same command structure as IN. What makes mirroring an option in the IN fleet a good thing in the AdMech fleet?

If you feel its priced just right, do you plan to use the commanders regularly? will you be taking all three? Just one? Rerolls? Would you feel you got your points worth if you sunk 105 points in these commanders and fought a mirror fleet that took 3 more swords instead? How about if you just took one with a reroll for 50 points against a fleet that put those points into boosting batteries and NC?

[AndrewChristlieb]

I dont see the Admech having sub fleet commanders like that either, theyre not needed for the leadership or re-rolls since Admech gets good leadership already so theyre just there as a boost to get the gift you want, for a very steep price. Is there a fluff reason to have secondary commanders? Wouldnt a fleet of Admech be around to support the primary research vessel and wouldnt all ranking researchers be aboard said vessel so they could... you know research ?

[afterimagedan]

Alright, well you guys figure it out. I believe I have put forward arguments for secondary commanders in the Admech fleet and my arguments against randomized gifts. If you guys want to discuss and figure out how you want it, we will vote. Just let me know when you are ready.

[horizon]

I am against sub commanders as well for the admech.

[afterimagedan]

Why