August 02, 2024, 01:13:51 PM

Author Topic: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus  (Read 43779 times)

Offline Vaaish

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2013, 03:53:50 AM »
I'm not sure I like the idea of fixed point cost for gifts. I think it makes the fleet a little too flat since certain gifts will be obviously better and one thing I've learned from epic is that even relatively insane point weighting on "better" options does little to make alternatives attractive. It usually doesn't even drastically upset a list when you are talking about a difference of 50 to 100 points in a 1500 point game.

Has anyone floated the idea of retaining the random gifts but allowing the admech commanders to provide a modifier to the table? Make a 7 as select your gift from the table and then grant the commanders these modifiers.

Ie. explorator grants +1 to rolls on the table
Venator grants.  +2 to rolls.
Maybe add a third level that grants +3

It helps reduce the randomness a bit. Or we could expand on it a bit and give the explorator a reroll with no table modifier and the venator +2 or 3 on the table and no rerolls. It effectively gives you your choice of gift either 33% of the time or 50% of the time.
-Vaaish

Offline Duke

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2013, 05:04:15 AM »
I was thinking along Vaaish's lines.
Keeping in mind that a Magus gives the flagship the power to select a gift, a slight modifier across the fleet on the table rolls would be helpful (I'm not convinced about the current Magus prices as it is).

Two suggestions/ideas to entertain:
*There are 7 choices: make one of them a basic, always available choice like 40k's primaris powers when the roll is not to your liking.
*Allow squadrons roll on one table, not per ship, and apply the result to all. Each ship in a squadron adds a +1 to  the table.

Cheers,
Duke
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 05:07:20 AM by Duke »

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2013, 05:26:49 AM »
5pt light
20 cruiser
10 battleship? anyone? anyone?

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2013, 06:34:01 AM »
In a way I do a agree. Having the option to pick will see AWR all over the place.
The reload option is, I agree with Andrew, a bit to much. Six options as is is fine.

Limiting the options is kinda daft. I never had problems with the random factor but I do agree that the options are not equal and sometimes no a perfect choice (will of the omnissiah ;) ) on certain vessels. In a campaign upgrades cost 10% of a vessel and these aren't equal as well. So by that token all upgrades for AM can be regarded equal.

Make it random again. And make the AdMech :
cl +5
cc +10
bb +20
but have the +1 turret (+5) and dorsal lance for cc (+15) as an upgrade).

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2013, 03:18:02 PM »
In a way I do a agree. Having the option to pick will see AWR all over the place.
The reload option is, I agree with Andrew, a bit to much. Six options as is is fine.

Limiting the options is kinda daft. I never had problems with the random factor but I do agree that the options are not equal and sometimes no a perfect choice (will of the omnissiah ;) ) on certain vessels. In a campaign upgrades cost 10% of a vessel and these aren't equal as well. So by that token all upgrades for AM can be regarded equal.

Make it random again. And make the AdMech :
cl +5
cc +10
bb +20
but have the +1 turret (+5) and dorsal lance for cc (+15) as an upgrade).

Ok so to get the modified leadership, +1d6 to repair, and free refit cost (along with all the negatives):

cl +5
cc +10
bb +20

I dont know 5 and 10 pts is awefully low. The only refit I would value at less than 15 is the FDT and over would be the AWR, maybe 15 points for all cruisers and 25 for battleships (most of these would be of more benifit to them than a cruiser).

Now Id like to also point out the fact that as the ability to efficiently produce long-range lance
weaponry by Mars was perfected in late M37, why cant we get the option to boost 30cm lances to 45cm? Maybe at a cost of 15pts/ship or 30 for the Gothic? Nice and pricy the way it should be :P.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2013, 03:40:22 PM »
Why not both. You can risk it and roll for a low price, or you can pay extra to choose. We could work on prices that might even be percentage based that way, but if people would rather have the randomness element, they can.

Also, why would Tyranid evolutions be chosen but AdMech upgrades be random?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 07:19:43 PM by afterimagedan »

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2013, 08:01:28 PM »
Random seems like a step backwards for this thread. Having specific pricing allows vastly different upgrades with varying power levels without having to worry about balancing issues. The ability to randomly get an extra turret (archer quote: hurray!...) versus augmented weapon relays or whatnot is unbalancing (if the pricing is too low, it becomes a win 90% of the time) or severely weakening (if the ability is priced high, the we have potentially weaker vessels for effectively the same price IN THE SAME GAME).

Like 'nids, the upgrades should be purchasable. This is both easiest (no questions about what was rolled, no having to estimate the average point cost that the roll represents) and will result in the most cohesive play experience. If there was a vessel for IN at 200pts that had at the "beginning of the game, roll a d6: on a 1-2 treat this vessel as a cobra class destroyer. On a 3-4 treat it like a lunar class cruiser. On a 5-6 treat it like a Retribution class battleship" people would be hesitant to include it or play against it, since it goes from being vastly underpowered to overpowered from game to game.

By allowing people to purchase the upgrade we are also allowing them to define their fleets strategy. Purposefully buying extended range to allow for a flanking force is cool, but randomly finding out your AAF linebreaker now has it is useful, but less conducive to interesting fleet construction.

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2013, 08:11:57 PM »
And what do you see with Nids (afaik) that some upgrades are taken more often then others.
I mean, AWR is totally the way to go on gunnery ships. Why bother with an upgrade like GTM for such a ship?

Andrew, 5pts may indeed be to low.


Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2013, 08:17:54 PM »
@horizon Fair point on that. I would rather see a restriction on how many times you can grab a certain upgrade than making it random again, however.

What if we made a small sidebar at the beginning? Restricting an option to 1 per XXXpts is hardly a new twist to fleet lists, so we could easily use that to encourage creative lists.

"Note: You may only have one instance of a mechanicus gift per 500pts."

Basically, you can only have so many AWR, even if you are willing to pay for them.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2013, 08:43:27 PM »
We could try actually comming up with a selection of options that are all equaly attractive too.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Duke

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2013, 08:47:31 PM »
"Also, why would Tyranid evolutions be chosen but AdMech upgrades be random?"
-ADmech upgrades don't define the ability of the vessel, they're merely ancillary to the basic cruiser design.
-To roll 'Fleet Defense Turret' rather than AWD isn't crippling, as these choices aren't formative. They're all good choices actually, but some shine brightly. Horizon's nailed it.

To Talos's suggestion:
-Most ADmech fleets consist of 3 (maybe 4) cruisers. Putting at cap on 500 or 750 per upgrade will still mean the player is focusing his points on nabbing AWD.

If randomness played straight bothers some, then Vaaish introduced an interesting idea: modifiers from commanders or other sources. And if Horizon believes that's daft, then consider the roll as determining your bracket of choices. If you roll a two, select option two or lower. Roll a four, select 1, 2, 3, or 4. e.t.c..

-Duke

EDIT: After reading Talos response below, I'll clarify that I meant 'gift' rather than 'upgrade' as being secondary. The upgrades ADmech pays for are (primarily that plasma battery and +1 lance) are essential to the play of the faction. The gifts- I don't believe- are.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 10:35:59 PM by Duke »

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2013, 09:40:36 PM »
@Duke Not sure what game size you are referring to: at 1500pts, and admech fleet without at least 4+ cruisers (or 3+ and a battleship) is going to be severely outnumbered and outgunned, AWR or not. And it can easily be argued that range increases define a vessel as much as weapon loadout; even if they were the same price, no one would argue that a dominator and a range increased tyrant are the same thing. Range matters, and so does accuracy/firepower.

I don't mind randomness in a game; it's part of what makes it fun. But having randomness in list building is generally a really bad idea. People like to know what they are buying, because random value is not very popular. Look at the american stock market for a good example of what happens when something stable becomes incredibly variable. If asked, most american citizens would have preferred higher real estate prices... infinitely better than spending all that money and finding out it's worth nothing.

Admech fleets require carriers, and nabbing AWR on a carrier is generally wasted points. I think a players should be able to run an AWR squadron if he likes, but it should be limited so that he does not have only AWR vessels. Also, I agree that all the option are good. AWR just adds the most firepower, and more firepower directly and consistently increases the effectiveness of a vessel, whereas most of the other ones are more circumstantial.

I think we all agree that whilst fleet defense turrets (to use Duke's example) are good, they are not in use every turn by every vessel, whereas better guns are. Randomness allows for the possibility of all AWR fleets, which is obviously very powerful. You would have an immediate advantage by shear virtue of having more powerful vessels than your point value was designed to accommodate. No one likes starting a game of with a strong disadvantage (I'm looking at you, Grey Knight vs. Daemons and Dark Angels vs. Chaos Space Marines >:()

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2013, 09:50:00 PM »
 I run a max of 4ac in my admech fleet: a reserve dictator from the IN

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2013, 09:53:40 PM »
Would you really pay the points for an AWR on a dictator? ;)

Offline Vaaish

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Re: BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2013, 10:37:20 PM »
Quote
I would rather see a restriction on how many times you can grab a certain upgrade than making it random again, however.

Restrictions don't address the core issue. All they do is tell everyone you realize there's a problem but you aren't dealing with it. For instance, if you put a restriction of 2 on AWR, you can be guaranteed that people will still take the maximum allowed AWR before looking to take a different option. Random keeps the gifts a novelty flavor item rather than a hardcore tournament option.

Quote
Would you really pay the points for an AWR on a dictator?
The point being different ships will find different options more or less valuable.

I really don't see restricted selection as a way forward here. All it eventually does is force players to pay for perceived sub-par upgrades to their ships after the "useful" and restricted (and likely most expensive) options have been exhausted. Fixed selection also assures that you will always meet up with the ships having the most optimal configurations. The Gifts should be fun; they should add flavor to the fleet without overshadowing it. The ships you choose, not the gifts you give them should define your fleet.
-Vaaish