BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus

[Talos]

@Vaaish I agree with you on certain points here, but others I feel are not quite as much of an issue as you put forth. I once asked if anybody had ever tried an all battleship fleet versus an all cruiser fleet. Someone (I think it might have been Sig, but don't quote him on that) said they had, but that the all battleship fleet had absolutely slaughtered the all cruiser fleet. Hands down. I believe they had only crippled a pair of battleships, not destroyed any IIRC. So clearly Battleships are better than their point value in cruisers, yet we allow Battleships to see play with a restriction to the quantity.

Also, saying the ships you choose define your fleet more than the gifts is a little bit of a misnomer, if you will; since admech vessels (with an exception of course) are just IN vessels with some minor tweaking and special rules, I would say the gits constitute a fair pat of what makes AdMech special. Without them, we could just make another IN list with a mandatory adjustment to capital vessels.

It goes without saying that they will never be a hardcore tournament option; there is no hardcore BFG tournament environment, despite the fact that they do see the light of day. Ours is a mostly casual wargame.

You and horizon are right about one part of the buying however; people are just going to pick the perceived most powerful option available and buy it as many times as they are allowed. But the system is never to blame for the abuse of players, so we don't have to bust our proverbial balls working around people who seeks to abuse a system. No system is flawless, and these people will find ways to abuse it no matter how hard we try.

One solution we could entertain is to reduce the power level of the upgrades overall and make it fully random. People don't mind gambling so much if its only 5 or 10pts a vessel, and if we remove the high powered options (like AWR) there will be no issue with this whatsoever.

The second is that we keep it purchasable but figure out some creative way of stopping people from spamming AWR. I look forward to some suggestions, because I admit I am running out of ideas for this problem. Thoughts?

[afterimagedan]

What if we made a small sidebar at the beginning? Restricting an option to 1 per XXXpts is hardly a new twist to fleet lists, so we could easily use that to encourage creative lists.

Yes. This is the best option and a great compromise.

[afterimagedan]

"Also, why would Tyranid evolutions be chosen but AdMech upgrades be random?"

I am talking about the Evolutions, not the weapons you have to purchase. Evolutions are just like Gifts.

To Talos's suggestion:
-Most ADmech fleets consist of 3 (maybe 4) cruisers. Putting at cap on 500 or 750 per upgrade will still mean the player is focusing his points on nabbing AWD.

So? What's with people being against letting people pay for AWR?

If randomness played straight bothers some, then Vaaish introduced an interesting idea: modifiers from commanders or other sources. And if Horizon believes that's daft, then consider the roll as determining your bracket of choices. If you roll a two, select option two or lower. Roll a four, select 1, 2, 3, or 4. e.t.c..

-Duke

That's still random and you could still get screwed for a game with worse choices. Why not just make them purchasable? 1 max per gift per 750pts or part thereof?

EDIT: After reading Talos response below, I'll clarify that I meant 'gift' rather than 'upgrade' as being secondary. The upgrades ADmech pays for are (primarily that plasma battery and +1 lance) are essential to the play of the faction. The gifts- I don't believe- are.

I still don't see the difference. If what you are saying is that Tyranids need evolutions because they are pretty terrible without them, then I would agree. But, gifts are pretty much just evolutions for Admech.

[afterimagedan]

I would rather see a restriction on how many times you can grab a certain upgrade than making it random again, however.

Restrictions don't address the core issue. All they do is tell everyone you realize there's a problem but you aren't dealing with it. For instance, if you put a restriction of 2 on AWR, you can be guaranteed that people will still take the maximum allowed AWR before looking to take a different option. Random keeps the gifts a novelty flavor item rather than a hardcore tournament option.

But we want this list to be a choice that hardcore tournament players would actually consider taking. I don't agree with your point here. Putting a cap on options that seem to be the ones people take the most because of what they do is perfectly acceptable.

Would you really pay the points for an AWR on a dictator?

The point being different ships will find different options more or less valuable.

Right, more reason random is a bad idea.

I really don't see restricted selection as a way forward here. All it eventually does is force players to pay for perceived sub-par upgrades to their ships after the "useful" and restricted (and likely most expensive) options have been exhausted. You make a point here. Why not just make them purchasable at the proper amount and everyone wins?

Fixed selection also assures that you will always meet up with the ships having the most optimal configurations. The Gifts should be fun; they should add flavor to the fleet without overshadowing it. The ships you choose, not the gifts you give them should define your fleet.
I agree with this but who says that the gifts I have chosen while using the original BFG:R Admech fleet was more about the gift than the ship? No, I think that's an unfair assumption.  Let's make the ship and gift something that people have to think about. When you restrict the purchase of gifts, it makes the player also have to consider even more which ships to take because they would like to have ships that can benefit from other upgrades.

[Talos]

@afterimagedan Thanks there, buddy. I was feeling a little alone here...

To be perfectly frank; every issue everybody has listed so far seems to stem from around the Augmented Weapons Relay (AWR for short). Is this option considered too powerful, or just the best of the ones presented? In plaxor's BFG:R, he has the AWR at 30pts, a pretty hefty investment. Since a left column shift is worth 15pts if the mars is anything to go by, that would put lance doubling on a 6 at about 15pts as well. Is that accurate? I am not the best at Mathammer.

Before everyone jumps me, would it be too much to remove AWR? Would this solve the solution, or does AdMech need this to be competitive? I don't have lots of experience with them.

[AndrewChristlieb]

When you start restricting something your going to force people to take them, not because they may or may not be the best but because we say they are the best. You might as well pull all these options and just build the best ones right into the cost of the ships.

[Bessemer]

My friend does field an admech cruiser sometimes, but doesn't often take AWR just through sheer cost. would removing the two lance hits on 6's be favourable? As Talos says, this would put it at 15 which is more in line with the other gifts. I can see the point for random gifts, but I also don't like being forced to use things I don't want.

All-in-all, an option cap would probably be the way forward

[Talos]

If we don't go with random (which I hope is the case), dividing the lances and column shift into two separate abilities might work because then you are limiting a ship to one of the two effectively. Although straight battery and lance vessels might still grab them, mixed vessels like lunars might find that the other option look more appealing.

Just a thought, and maybe a dumb one, but a thought on the table is worth two in your skull.

[afterimagedan]

When you start restricting something your going to force people to take them, not because they may or may not be the best but because we say they are the best. You might as well pull all these options and just build the best ones right into the cost of the ships.

?? If it's just because we say it's the best then someone will eventually disagree and buy other upgrades. Why does it matter if everyone wants to take AWR?

[afterimagedan]

Since a left column shift is worth 15pts if the mars is anything to go by, that would put lance doubling on a 6 at about 15pts as well. Is that accurate? I am not the best at Mathammer.

For a 60cm FLR lance, put it around 17.3 points. Statistically, you need two for 1 hit. That means 1 hit costs 34.6 at that range with those facings.  1/6 chance to get another hit makes the AWR lance bonus at about 5.77pts.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Emergency Energy Reserves: When crippled,
the ship does not reduce  turrets, shielding or
weapons strength. The vessel still counts as
crippled in every other respect.
Advanced Engines: The ship gains +5cm speed,
as well as +1D6 when on All Ahead Full special
orders. The ship adds +1 to its leadership when
attempting All Ahead Full, Come To New Heading
or Burn Retros special orders.
Advanced Shielding: Ignore all negative effects
of having a blast marker or gas clouds in contact
with the ship's base as it applies to leadership,
movement and repairing critical damage. For each
hit against the shields, roll a D6, the hit is ignored
and no blast marker is placed. This effect goes
away if the ship suffers “Shields Collapsed” critical
damage
Fleet Defense Turrets: Two fleet defense turrets
are added to the ship capable of protecting itself
or any one other vessel within 15cm each
ordnance phase, adding +2 to the turret strength
of the ship it is defending (this does not alter
bomber attack rolls when used to defend another
vessel). These otherwise work exactly as normal
turrets do in all other respects.
Gyro-stabilized Targeting Matrix: Ship
weapons are reduced to 75% instead of 50%
when on All Ahead Full, Come To New
Heading or Burn Retros special orders. Nova
Cannons still may not fire. The ship adds +1 to
its leadership when attempting Lock On special
orders.
Augmented Weapon Relays: Weapon batteries
shift left on the gunnery table before all other
modifiers are applied. Lance hits count as double
on rolls of a 6.


This isnt a suggestion really just pointing out that if they looked like this ^ I would really have to sit down and think about how I want my fleet to be setup with the gifts.

As they sit right now I can think of no reason I would want any of these other than AWR or maybe FDT. Energy reserves assumes Im not going to bug out a crippled ship and I get no benifit till the ship is crippled, Advanced engines might be nice for light cruisers but the AWR is too, repulsor shielding is meh, Gyros are for eatting... umm I mean also blah as theyre of questionable usefulness since I rarely have to use those special orders.

[afterimagedan]

I think those are fantastic. Could you clarify Advanced Shielding?  If these were the list of upgrades, would you be satisfied in putting prices on them instead of randomizing them?

[Vaaish]

So clearly Battleships are better than their point value in cruisers, yet we allow Battleships to see play with a restriction to the quantity.

I think you are missing the point of the restriction in this case. A fleet of all battleships isn't really fluffy, nor is a fleet of battleships largely desired. Restrictions to gifts is purely to prevent people from selecting the most optimal option.

But the system is never to blame for the abuse of players, so we don't have to bust our proverbial balls working around people who seeks to abuse a system. No system is flawless, and these people will find ways to abuse it no matter how hard we try.

I'm jumping a head here because I want to address your other comments with something Dan mentioned. I think it should be noted that you are creating an abusable system (pointed and player chosen gifts) and then patching it because it makes some options more desirable and more easily abused. This isn't a good thing.

That's still random and you could still get screwed for a game with worse choices. Why not just make them purchasable? 1 max per gift per 750pts or part thereof?

I believe this is the crux of the issue. Gifts should NEVER cause someone to get screwed over. Gifts should be the seasoning to the meat and potatoes of the ships that make up your fleet. Personally I don't believe they do under the regular fully random rules. Is it possible someone will roll all AWR for their fleet? Yes, but it's extremely unlikely and it's also just as unlikely every ship in the fleet will find the gift that useful. Nor does every ship having AWR immediately or even significantly affect the ability to successfully engage an admech fleet.

Right, more reason random is a bad idea.

You need to explain more than that for this to be a valid point. Random is only bad if the viability of the fleet is directly linked to the gifts you roll. This should never be the case (and I'd argue currently isn't the case). What I was getting at with my statement is that by allowing players to select options, you have to enforce rather draconian limitations (one AWR per 1000 points) for it to have much effect on the list since you might have only two ships that get optimal benefit from AWR and one that benefits from Repulsor shields.

I agree with this but who says that the gifts I have chosen while using the original BFG:R Admech fleet was more about the gift than the ship? No, I think that's an unfair assumption.  Let's make the ship and gift something that people have to think about. When you restrict the purchase of gifts, it makes the player also have to consider even more which ships to take because they would like to have ships that can benefit from other upgrades.

I believe that we are even having a discussion on randomization of gifts is evidence enough that people don't see the gifts as flavor. Gifts should be kicks and giggles, minor changes cool if they work but never to be relied on. Your following statements make it pretty clear you see gifts integral to the tactics employed by the fleet. If you are looking to make people think more about which ships to take, it's a step backward to have them base that decision on which gift gets the most benefit. If that is your intent, it would be far easier to simply remove gifts entirely and add them as upgrades like the Mars Targeting Matrix. Of course, that only accents the issue since now the upgrade would be more of a no brainer.

To be perfectly frank; every issue everybody has listed so far seems to stem from around the Augmented Weapons Relay (AWR for short). Is this option considered too powerful, or just the best of the ones presented? In plaxor's BFG:R, he has the AWR at 30pts, a pretty hefty investment. Since a left column shift is worth 15pts if the mars is anything to go by, that would put lance doubling on a 6 at about 15pts as well. Is that accurate? I am not the best at Mathammer.

The issue isn't the power of the AWR, this issue is that the AWR is the easiest gift to use and produces the most immediate perceived benefit. In practice, the gift is nice when it works but the benefit gained is usually pretty minimal (16% odds of making a double hit with lances and removing the restriction on shooting through BM and past 30cm). The effective change in most situations is one or two extra WB dice which really isn't that amazing in the scope of shooting against 5 or 6+ armor. There is the potential for a gothic to score 8 hits on a single go but it's hardly something to center your strategy around.

In the past the biggest concern with Gifts was that they were too random which probably translates into "we don't get the perfect option" I can agree that gifts throw you for a loop sometimes, but I don't think the option is straight up selection.

Another alternative I see is a Gifts pool. The table remains random, you still roll for gifts based on the number of eligible ships in your fleet, but the gifts are placed in a pool that the player can then assign to ships as he sees fit.

For instance I have this fleet:
Lunar + Boosted Batteries
Endeavour + Lance + Boosted Batteries
Gothic
Endurance + Lance
Oberon

I roll on the table 5 times and get:
2x AWR
1x Repulsor shields
1x Advanced Engines
1x FDT

I can now take those and assign them to a specific ship as I see fit.

[horizon]

That's an elegant solution!

[afterimagedan]

So clearly Battleships are better than their point value in cruisers, yet we allow Battleships to see play with a restriction to the quantity.

I think you are missing the point of the restriction in this case. A fleet of all battleships isn't really fluffy, nor is a fleet of battleships largely desired. Restrictions to gifts is purely to prevent people from selecting the most optimal option.

But the system is never to blame for the abuse of players, so we don't have to bust our proverbial balls working around people who seeks to abuse a system. No system is flawless, and these people will find ways to abuse it no matter how hard we try.

I'm jumping a head here because I want to address your other comments with something Dan mentioned. I think it should be noted that you are creating an abusable system (pointed and player chosen gifts) and then patching it because it makes some options more desirable and more easily abused. This isn't a good thing.

That's still random and you could still get screwed for a game with worse choices. Why not just make them purchasable? 1 max per gift per 750pts or part thereof?

I believe this is the crux of the issue. Gifts should NEVER cause someone to get screwed over. Gifts should be the seasoning to the meat and potatoes of the ships that make up your fleet. Personally I don't believe they do under the regular fully random rules. Is it possible someone will roll all AWR for their fleet? Yes, but it's extremely unlikely and it's also just as unlikely every ship in the fleet will find the gift that useful. Nor does every ship having AWR immediately or even significantly affect the ability to successfully engage an admech fleet.

Right, more reason random is a bad idea.

You need to explain more than that for this to be a valid point. Random is only bad if the viability of the fleet is directly linked to the gifts you roll. This should never be the case (and I'd argue currently isn't the case). What I was getting at with my statement is that by allowing players to select options, you have to enforce rather draconian limitations (one AWR per 1000 points) for it to have much effect on the list since you might have only two ships that get optimal benefit from AWR and one that benefits from Repulsor shields.

I agree with this but who says that the gifts I have chosen while using the original BFG:R Admech fleet was more about the gift than the ship? No, I think that's an unfair assumption.  Let's make the ship and gift something that people have to think about. When you restrict the purchase of gifts, it makes the player also have to consider even more which ships to take because they would like to have ships that can benefit from other upgrades.

I believe that we are even having a discussion on randomization of gifts is evidence enough that people don't see the gifts as flavor. Gifts should be kicks and giggles, minor changes cool if they work but never to be relied on. Your following statements make it pretty clear you see gifts integral to the tactics employed by the fleet. If you are looking to make people think more about which ships to take, it's a step backward to have them base that decision on which gift gets the most benefit. If that is your intent, it would be far easier to simply remove gifts entirely and add them as upgrades like the Mars Targeting Matrix. Of course, that only accents the issue since now the upgrade would be more of a no brainer.

To be perfectly frank; every issue everybody has listed so far seems to stem from around the Augmented Weapons Relay (AWR for short). Is this option considered too powerful, or just the best of the ones presented? In plaxor's BFG:R, he has the AWR at 30pts, a pretty hefty investment. Since a left column shift is worth 15pts if the mars is anything to go by, that would put lance doubling on a 6 at about 15pts as well. Is that accurate? I am not the best at Mathammer.

The issue isn't the power of the AWR, this issue is that the AWR is the easiest gift to use and produces the most immediate perceived benefit. In practice, the gift is nice when it works but the benefit gained is usually pretty minimal (16% odds of making a double hit with lances and removing the restriction on shooting through BM and past 30cm). The effective change in most situations is one or two extra WB dice which really isn't that amazing in the scope of shooting against 5 or 6+ armor. There is the potential for a gothic to score 8 hits on a single go but it's hardly something to center your strategy around.

In the past the biggest concern with Gifts was that they were too random which probably translates into "we don't get the perfect option" I can agree that gifts throw you for a loop sometimes, but I don't think the option is straight up selection.

Another alternative I see is a Gifts pool. The table remains random, you still roll for gifts based on the number of eligible ships in your fleet, but the gifts are placed in a pool that the player can then assign to ships as he sees fit.

For instance I have this fleet:
Lunar + Boosted Batteries
Endeavour + Lance + Boosted Batteries
Gothic
Endurance + Lance
Oberon

I roll on the table 5 times and get:
2x AWR
1x Repulsor shields
1x Advanced Engines
1x FDT

I can now take those and assign them to a specific ship as I see fit.

I think we are just on two different wavelengths here. I think the pool is a nice idea but still has the reasons I have stated before for not liking random rolling. Its better, but purchasing upgrades is just a better idea if we want to have this be a competitive list. You say its just icing on the cake and claim that this conversation is evidence that people sorry more about gifts than the ship.  I see it a different way. This conversation is more about making admech a list that isn't something people avoid playing because of the random factor. You admit that there are games where you can actually get terrible options for your ships. There are also games where you can roll really great options. By why leave it where we just have to hope for good gifts for our fleet and not bad? I bet no one will bring Admech to Adepticon this year and its precisely because you may be sitting there rolling for your gifts before the game, get total crap, and then feel like you got screwed for that game. Even if gifts are just icing on the cake, which I think they are more than just novelty, you still paid points for something that you rolled randomly and was crap. If we really want to fix this and have the best of both worlds, we should just make all options viable and properly priced instead of random.