BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus

[Vaaish]

Ok ideas for tweaking gifts. I'm assuming the in the following you are looking at the standard admech gifts from FAQ2010 and applying the changes.

1. EER

2. Advanced engines: allow a ship equipped with AE to initiate turns one class better than it is. So a battleship would move 10cm before turning, cruisers could begin turning at any point in a move.

3. Advanced shield: hits against shields must be resolved using the highest armor value on the ship.

4. FDT: add +2 turrets to the ship rather than replace ones already on the ship. If your ship has 4 turrets you go to 6. No turrets over 6 so if you have 5 you still only get six turrets.

5. Gstm: allow the ship to reroll any to hit dice that roll one (does not apply if the ship is locked on)

6. AWR: no change.

[afterimagedan]

4-6 are great. I'll look into 1-3 later.

[Heliosraven]

If You ask me I always thought the Random Table was a fun a interesting idea, and I hate to see that be taken away, cause I can just see that only one or two gifts would get picked and the others never see the light of day.  Fluff wise I always felt it fit cause of the whole Testing out new stuff plus what the ships Machine Spirit wants might not always agree with what YOU want.
So I say a new Random pool table that has equal gifts across the board cause it seems to me that the original idea was the lower end were weaker upgrades and the higher end were meant to be better.  Then just account for these upgrades in the ships cost.  In terms of assigning them I would say it should go as following

1) Any ship that rolled a 6 on their LD gets to choose which gift it gets with out rolling
2) Once all ships that rolled a 6 on LD have chosen their gift, the player then rolls a Number of d6's equal to the ships that are left and then assigns what ever gifts that are generated to the ship of their choice.

I think its the best of both worlds really, you got the random factor to keep in old school (and my option more fun) but you will have control over which ship gets what and thus give the ship the gift it would benefit the most from

[afterimagedan]

That's what I would like to see.

[afterimagedan]

Ok so, we have had a bunch of gift pool talk and gift changes talk on this and other threads. What else about Admech do you guys think needs to be looked at? Personally, I would like to re-evaluate the command structure in light of the IN, Chaos, and Tau, maybe just for point adjustments. Other than that, I am assuming the Admech Tyrant is getting the same treatment as the IN one.  I think the prices for both archmagos is pretty extreme, same with the RRs.

[Vaaish]

Points adjustment might be alright. Part of AdMech though is supposed to be the difficulty gaining rerolls. They already have better LD and combined with tabletop effects, they end up with pretty reliable orders. Part of their added cost is being able to outright select a gift. If the discussions on tweaks to gifts go anywhere, the ability to dictate a perfect gift synergy is a very powerful ability. Think about a ship with AWR and GSTM or one that focuses on defense with Advanced shields and FDT.

I would like to re-evaluate the command structure in light of the IN, Chaos, and Tau, maybe just for point adjustments.

What specifically did you have in mind? The two leaders we already have cover most of the situations unless you want to drop in the Fabricator General of Mars for a ld10 (do not do this it's an absurd example). Admech doesn't really have a lot wrong with it outside of being a tad pricey which I think has been addressed.

[afterimagedan]

The fact that their LD 9 arch maros is 50 point more than their ld8 archmagos for a leadership half their fleet gets is problematic. If their rerolls are supposed to be limited because of LD, they should look look ,pretty like the SM reroll setup. A fleet master comes with a RR and is LD 10 for 50pts. The admech magos at LD 8 comes with no rerolls but gets to choose an additional gift. But, there is a 50% chance their LD 8 is a downgrade. People were concerned with the IN admiral having a downgraded LD if they rolled a 6. This guy is downgraded on a 4+. Also, the LD 9 archmagos pays 50 points for LD 9 with not other benefits. That's steep, not to mention the rerolls are really expensive even compared to another high LD fleet like space marines. 

[Vaaish]

The fact that their LD 9 arch maros is 50 point more than their ld8 archmagos for a leadership half their fleet gets is problematic.

I don't know what changes have all happened to the IN, but this pricing structure follows the similar pricing structure for IN admirals in the BBB (minus the loss of the reroll for AdMech pricing is identical).

On further thought, I believe that AdMech doesn't have as much access to rerolls because they aren't a pure combat fleet like the IN. AdMech have penalties to boarding and no reroll while IN has no penalties and a reroll. I think this may represent the competency in tech for AdMech vs. the competency in combat for the IN.  It seems to me that AdMech commanders trade the included reroll for the gift selection and bonus gift to the ship they are on.

The cost of rerolls is pretty standard for added ones. Even IN pays 25 points for the first extra reroll.

People were concerned with the IN admiral having a downgraded LD if they rolled a 6. This guy is downgraded on a 4+. Also, the LD 9 archmagos pays 50 points for LD 9 with not other benefits. That's steep, not to mention the rerolls are really expensive even compared to another high LD fleet like space marines.

Are people also concerned here? I'm also curious as to why this is so much of an issue. You can assign your commander anywhere you like and I don't see anything in the AdMech rules preventing you from doing this. Why not put him on a ship that rolled low LD?

I'd consider a drop to 75 points for the Veneratus but I think that the Explorator is alright and that the rerolls should remain extra.

[afterimagedan]

A 50pt jump from ld 8 to ld 9 when half the ships in the fleet will already have ld 9 is a very expensive upgrade.

I am saying is that the ld9 archmagos should be 75pts instead. Now, onto rerolls:

IN commander LD8 with 3 rerolls  is 100pts
AM commander LD 8 with 1 reroll is 100pts
-admech also gets extra chosen gift and their fleet already has higher LD. that first RR is too expensive
BUT to move up to a 2nd reroll for the AM is 75PTS?! That's ridiculous.  The increment shouldn't be more than 25pts more considering the Imperial Navy, Space Marines, Tau, Chaos have 25pt increments. Admech are between IN and SM on the ld scale which have the same increments, so why 75pts instead of 25?

Anyways, reduce the ld 9 archmagos to 75pts and put their rerolls on the same scale as the previously listed fleets. Most of the commanders (besides SMs) have a reroll built in. Arguing that the Admech need it less doesn't hold weight against the precedent of the SM fleet.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Admech get a gift instead of a free re-roll as part of their cost.

Their two optional re-rolls should be dropped to 25pts each, making them so expensive isnt the way to limit them, theyre already pretty rare compared to most races.

Their leadership is a bit off tho, leadership 9/10 would be more appropriate.



Leadership 9 w/extra chosen gift. 50pts

Leadership 10 w/extra chosen gift and a re-roll. 75pts

This places them squarely between IN and SM in theory. 

[Vaaish]

Leadership 9 w/extra chosen gift. 50pts

Leadership 10 w/extra chosen gift and a re-roll. 75pts

This places them squarely between IN and SM in theory.

I'd be a little concerned with a LD10 being available at 75 points but I'd be willing to put this on into playtesting.

[horizon]

Ld 8/9 is fine enough to me. With 9 you'll be on 10 a lot of times anyway.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The only problem with a leadership 8 commander is that he would be in the bottom percentile for his fleet list.

We could also try and go a similar route to the SM MotF.

Make one commander give him leadership 9 (the top 50% of the leadership chart is 9 after all) and the chosen gift for 50pts. This would place it between the IN LD8 and 1RR for 50 and the SM LD10 and 1RR for 50.

[Vaaish]

One question folks, is it really an issue that your commander might be outshown by his captains? History is rife with generals who don't perform that well.

I'm leaning towards no change to AdMech commanders stats and reducing the ld9  commander to 75 points

[AndrewChristlieb]

One question folks, is it really an issue that your commander might be outshown by his captains? History is rife with generals who don't perform that well.

I'm leaning towards no change to AdMech commanders stats and reducing the ld9  commander to 75 points

There is a problem with that yes, were paying for an improvement and 8 is not an improvement.