September 11, 2024, 10:16:02 PM

Author Topic: BFG:R Tau Empire  (Read 29898 times)

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2012, 04:08:35 PM »
My only objection to the messenger was its high point cost, when all it is is a floating tracking system. Consider that the custodian actually does stuff and has a double range one, I agree that it should have a point reduction and a bit more firepower.

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2012, 06:15:57 PM »
You should not compare the Messenger & Custodian.
And I think you underestimate its effect.

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2012, 09:47:13 PM »
I am not comparing the two on general merit; the custodian is obviously a much better vessel. As for what the messenger helps most, really it only proves useful when paired with hero's (less so now), protector (a mediocre choice at best) or castellan's, for which it is pretty useful. Of course, castellan's are usually hanging out around a custodian, so...

It just seems you have to pay a lot of points on an escort that is very feeble apart from the tracking system, which is quite good but also pricy if you consider its method of transportation.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 10:12:11 PM by Talos »

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2012, 09:57:06 PM »
Horizon, do you think the Messenger is worth 50pts?

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2012, 03:20:53 AM »
Talos, the Messenger renders best among Merchants & Explorers.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2012, 12:23:00 PM »
Well the range on them could be better. Stripping the system off the custodian (which is just bad in the first place) would help make the decision easier too after all the only reason to take the messenger goes right out the window when a capitol ship gets the same thing only better and for free.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2012, 02:44:02 PM »
@horizon How so? 50pts to boost the very measly firepower of your explorers seems rather useless. I will conceed that it would work rather well among ion merchants, but even then it does not seem fantastic.

Interesting point from AndrewChristlieb. What if all tracking systems were 20cm? Or the custodians was only ten and the merchants was the 20cm one? :o

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2012, 04:07:18 PM »
Well the range on them could be better. Stripping the system off the custodian (which is just bad in the first place) would help make the decision easier too after all the only reason to take the messenger goes right out the window when a capitol ship gets the same thing only better and for free.

Well, it's "free" meaning it's written into the points cost.

I would be entirely fine with just dropping the point cost of Messengers to 40pts. Its tracking system only really gets to work once reliably, sometimes twice, and then its roles is done. Essentially, it's a 25pt ship with a 25pt tracker on it and those 25 points go away very quickly. If used well, it can be really beneficial for the turn it is used but then it's gone so quickly.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 04:19:36 PM by afterimagedan »

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2012, 06:46:20 PM »
The Custodian pays for the tracking system just as it pays for grav hooks.

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2012, 07:28:10 PM »
If smotherman is considered reasonably accurate (which I believe people do think), the custodian without tracker is still undercosted by 50 or so points. I think its a pretty cheap alternative in my book. ;D

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2012, 08:24:50 PM »
If smotherman is considered reasonably accurate (which I believe people do think), the custodian without tracker is still undercosted by 50 or so points. I think its a pretty cheap alternative in my book. ;D

I have it at 325.5, not accounting for the boarding downside, containing resilient bombers, and Orca carrying, and the targeting stuff. It's a great deal.

Offline ThaneAquilon

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2012, 08:38:04 PM »
a grav hook is 5 points, so fifteen for the Custodian. I would say the inability to board and H+R probably offsets resiliant bombers.

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2012, 08:48:22 PM »
Smotherman is a rough in a lot of cases.

But if I use it the Custodian comes at 328,5pts including 5pts per grav hook.

Drop 5% for boarding -16,25pts
The TS system is on ship self 20pts:
turrets have a re-roll option so gain, so 6x5pts instead of 4x5pts (=10pts more)
railguns count above 45cm as more railguns to count, under 30cm this does not.
So: 16 basis weapon batteries equals 12railguns without right shift @45cm (look it up in the table)
16wb @45cm = 48pts. But the bonus is dropped under 30cm so 12 gets worse under 30cm and is the same as 16 regular above 30cm
(sounds jibberish but its true ;) )
Downgrade the 48pts to max of 45pts. That is 9pts more then what 12wb @ 45cm cost...
...
thus.... TS = +10pts for turrets & +10pts for railguns.

328 (base)+20(ts)-16 (boarding)= 332pts

Furthermore: above is counted with full 32,5pts for Imperial Prow:
a) Tau prow deflector can be destroyed / IN not
b) the IN prow is overcosted anyway in smotherman  :P

So drop those 332 to 325 pts.

Now the most tricky part:
the range of the tracking systems. It can be good, it can be not.
10pts would seem okay for the range. (So in total the Custodian pays 30pts for the TS)

So we end at 335pts.

Undercosted vessel? Nah.


edit: resilient bombers: T-hawk bays cost 10pts according smothy, I used 13,5 IN value.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 08:49:56 PM by horizon »

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2012, 09:13:57 PM »
edit: resilient bombers: T-hawk bays cost 10pts according smothy, I used 13,5 IN value.

True, forgot to look into that. Good work on the math, btw.

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Tau Empire
« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2012, 09:49:31 PM »
@horizon you must have a more up to date version than I do, because it smothermans out to 375ish on mine, without counting tracker at all. Could you link me yours? Mine is: http://yenlowang.free.fr/BFG/smotherman_formula_v205.pdf