BFG:R Tau Empire

[Talos]

I presume you mean GW Tau, and I'm afraid we disagree on this point. The FW tau have a more balanced approach, and their ships reflect this with strong ordnance, but average quantities backed up by more effective firepower with comparable ranges for a combined arms approach. The GW tau, being mostly reconfigured cargo and exploration vessels, are mostly just ordnance machines; Tau cruisers are ships of the line, they just deliver their damage through point-blank ordnance with trickles of conventional firepower, in the form of the hero. The merchant is both capable of laying down lots of firepower (for its size) and has a boatload of hull integrity at a real affordable price; the Hero is there to help soak up hits and deliver the vaunted tau torpedoes en masse, both of them absorbing damage that would otherwise go to the fragile but deadly explorers. Then they have Orca's for picking off wounded ships and warding off mobile enemies, and defenders for plugging holes in the line and covering the explorers in their most vulnerable arc; the 30cm and less from the sides or rear.

[ThaneAquilon]

Yeah, that's all true, and I never said it wasn't. What I'm saying is that as their only real warship, they put a lot.of stock.in it having versatile damage output, as evidenced by its original stats. Now weakening to match the "weaker than a lunar" fluff I'm fine with. But removing the ability to really damage cruiser in a variable way is a problem. What if theirs a 3-4 turret cruiser? Carrier of admech or.something? Then although this hero, theirs bombers are way less effective, but the landed they had (even just 2 total) will shore that up, and vice versa for high shield low turret. My point is that the hero was made to.be able to perform in all 4 aspects of space warfare (lance, torpedoes, batteries, ac) and to remove that would 1 hurt he flavor, imo, and 2 hurt the fleets ability to compete.

[horizon]

What I am saying is that the BFG:R design was good enough. 

[Talos]

You mean classic hero, just reduced lances right? If so then I agree, this new version, although functional, is not required. On that we agree.

[ThaneAquilon]

Yes, alright, that's all I was trying for. EXCEPT! We reduced the lances by 1 each side, which is good, but did we also reduce batteries? that seems unecessary.

[horizon]

Did we?

[ThaneAquilon]

The last I had read (though it may not have actually happened) there was a push to reduce the batteries by 2 on each side.

[horizon]

The weapon battery variant dropped str1 per side (2 in total).

Previous the choice was:
4 Ion Cannons @ 30cm vs 8 Weapon Batteries @ 45cm

Now:
2 Ion Cannons @ 30cm vs 6 Weapon Batteries @ 45cm

[ThaneAquilon]

Okay, did we really need to drop 2 WB? it's already losing quite a bit of firepower. Or was that change already made in BFG:R, and voted on the last time round?

[Talos]

@ThaneAquilon did you mean the 1 battery less a side for the battery variant or something else? As is, the Battery variant horizon is showing is on par with the lance variant; slightly less effective but longer range.

With this change, it is only marginally less dangerous with firepower than a lunar (assuming forward firing) and still packs the launch bays extras, along with the extra turret. Still clearly a powerful all-rounder, just like you are wanting, but without the ability to outgun a Lunar, at least without combining ordnance.

[horizon]

Almost forgetting:
Custodian should be a grand cruiser.

[afterimagedan]

We are really close with Tau. Anyone want to put forward a proposal for voting? I am looking at the Hero and Defender.

[ThaneAquilon]

i really REALLY think the Messenger should be reviewed. Talos and I tried to roughly calculate the cost, and either it is grossly over-costed (This is what I think) or the Custodian is seriously undercosted.

[afterimagedan]

Putting 1 Messenger near a Custodian basically gives it 3-5wbs at 45cm when over 30cm range. Check the chart out and compare the differences between Custodian without a Messenger nearby and a Custodian with a Messenger nearby. Now, check the differences between the firepower of 1 Messenger between a Custodian and a Protector. The amount of extra firepower a Messenger can add if used well is fantastic. And this is not counting the re-roll turret bonus. Now, check out the benefits the Messenger adds when you spread a squadron of them and add their tracking ability to 2 Protectors, 2 Emissaries, a Custodian, and a squadron of Castellans.  That's a lot of extra firepower in that turn you are at long range. It can win you the game.

[ThaneAquilon]

Well, putting a Messenger next to a custodian doesn't actually do anything, as it has a Tracker built in with a longer range. Yes it can be used strategically, the tracking system is good, that's not what I'm arguing against, I'm saying that the messenger is not worth 50 points. Even opperating on a ten cm tracker, the custodian bassically gets it for free, and it's like 25 points on the messenger. However my problem is that the messenger is hillariously easy to destroy 1 shild 1 hit 1 wb..it's just terrible for 50 points, IMO even with the tracker.