BFG:R Tau Empire

[Talos]

Sword is an odd comparison because it is a much more efficient vessel than the castellan, point for point. Infidel is a bit more lop sided admittedly, although saying that tau torpedoes are 100% than IN is absolute crap. The shrinking factor has come into play multiple times in games I have played, rendering crippling torpedo salvos into mere annoyances.

Second, if also competes against the new defender. Give me 9 defenders versus 10 castellan's and you would have a one sided slaughter And the defender's would feast on the corpses of the more "advanced" ships.

The defender outguns it and is significantly harder to kill....for 5 points. True it does have it's advantages, but nothing comparable to the huge firepower and resilience that the defender gains. For 5pts. And the castellan is much more reliant on SO than it's brother. Miss an SO and that castellan is pegging away with its puny batteries. Miss an SO and your defender still has the battery output comparable to a lunar cruiser.

To compound that, they are both available without restrictions in the same fleet lists.

It's good that the defender will see more play; it's just a shame it went from being pretty bad to quite good whilst the castellan is mired in mediocrity, in comparison if nowhere else. Maybe I can find some defenders on ebay...

[afterimagedan]

I do think 45pts doesnt seem right. The 40pts at 30cm looks like a good idea.

[afterimagedan]

I retract my statement. Castellan is good at 45. It has more speed, double the turning radius, extra range, another tau torpedo(which is a big deal), and 5 pts less. Drawbacks are 1 hit instead of 2 and 3 less batteries.

Talos, I will take you up on that battle. You will not be able to dodge the torpedoes I am putting out and I will be hitting you with my batteries first, guaranteed. Yes, you have double the hits and those batteries will hurt, but taking that firs strike of the castellan weapons will reduce your chances.

[afterimagedan]

Putting up then vote to close the Tau document.

[Talos]

@afterimagedan Tau torpedoes are no more accurate than IN ones for damage output, and the defenders 1 torpedo will pop those 2 torpedo volleys as easy as they would a strength 9 retribution volley And a quick mathhammer would put 20 str battery with range penalty at...well, not very dangerous at all. Even if you lost half of your defenders to that one battery strike (unlikely at best) your lock on return fire would gut them like fish on a spear gun. LO 25 battery, probably with range bonus, will destroy far more 1 hit escorts than the penalized 20 str one. That is matthammer though, and if reality has taught me anything it's not to trust numbers. They lie and they cheat...

Honestly, to me the castellan is like 42pts, but since we can't do that it may as well stay I suppose. Especially if both 'Dan and 'Chris are so god-damned adamant about it, cursed american stubborness...

Also, those be fighting words, Dan. If you ever find yourself in my neck of the woods, I might make you eat those words. Either it way it would be fun to meet and play with you guys...

[afterimagedan]

It would only be penalized assuming I have to shoot you at long range. With my faster speed, I may be able to rig it so that I get the first shot at normal range. And yes, them's faat'n wurdz.  What is castellans went to wb3?

[horizon]

Castellan with 45cm is unique plus it benefits a lot from tracking range (offense & defence).
45pts is okay.

The little ship has a striking range of 70cm with railguns and 65cm with missiles. An Infidel only has a striking range of 60cm with both weapons. A Falchion even less.

[Talos]

@afterimagedan If castellan's were weapon battery 3 I would stop complaining forever. Come visit your northern neighbors for a trouncing some time, eh?

@horizon Very much agreed about the tracking range very much benefiting the castellan, but that (should) have no effect on it's pricing, as it is not a intrinsic part of the vessel.

I'm not (despite any underlying bitterness ) saying that the castellan is absolute garbage; just that the defender is now really good whereas the castellan is only mediocre to okay. And both are available freely in the same fleet without restriction.

Somewhat like the styx thing; people ran it at 290pts or whatever it was, but it was a much better vessel and was radically improved by a price drop to 260pts. I feel like the castellan could really benefit from this treatment as well. Or, as dan suggested, a 1 point battery increase.

[horizon]

The problem isn't the 45pts Castellan but it is how the Defender at 2 hits ( :/ ) will handle in games.
Otherwise the Defender is the close combat brawler and the Castellan the agile sniper. Two unique escorts with good concepts.

[Talos]

@ horizon Again we are in 100% agreement, and at 1hit 45pts each there would be no competition. They would just be different themes. I am pro 2 hit escorts, but in this particular scenario it really makes the castellan seem like the lesser option, because it can actually take the hit to close, making it more versatile overall. Still, we shall see. Tau lists tend not to be tight point wise, so maybe the 15pts/ 3 escort squadron won't affect list building much anyway.