BFG:R Tau Empire

[ThaneAquilon]

I don't think we should be removing options from the emmisary. The amount of options it had made up in part for the small fleet size of Tau. It is also a much less useful warship without this variant, and if we weaken 2 of Tau's 4 warships, and we don't give them something to compensate...

Having the lance emissary allowed for more fleet versatility, I run a fleet without protectors, and use emissaries as mg ships of the line. If this change happens, the I MUST use protectors, with no alternative.

The one horizon suggested is fine, if we make the railguns l/f, r/f and f, as all other Tau vessels have that. And if its an addition, not a replacement.

I think if the hero is worse than the lunar, it should be st least 5 points cheaper. I would be willing to playtest that defender. I still think the merchant should be slightly upgunned.

[horizon]

The ion Merchant has more focusable firepower then the dauntless.
I think points are spot on.

Fluffwise it is pretty weird to not use protectors in a kororvesh fleet as it is the main Combat vessel.
Alas, you want more emissaries and want to break what the model shows.
 What do others think?


No point drop on Hero, it still has options due its synergy strike options.

[Talos]

As for Hero, not many other cruisers can target an enemy with battery-lance, followed up by torpedo-bombers. And even though it runs slower, it still has 2 more hull than the protector, which is a boon.

@horizon ThaneAquilon has yet to play against me with his Tau in a game larger than 1500pts, so his fleet does not run protectors. I'm sure he will in a larger game however.

As for emmisary, I think the horizon profile should replace one of the three current options; off the top of my head, we should keep the ion cannon version and the launch bay version, toss whoever is left (no pdf in front of me here). It would be ahrdly the first model to not have the weapons it hsa depicted on the model (I'm looking at you, Hive Ship ).

Merchant is well gunned, just very slow and un-manoeuvrable for a light cruiser. But it is really cheap, so...

[horizon]

Hero,
in a 1:1 duel vs the Lunar the Hero, even with the lower stats will give the Lunar a difficult time as the Lunar can only use 1 broadside. The Hero loses 2 wb in that attack but gains 2 resilient bombers (plus a fighter to neuter the Lunar its torpedoes).
In a bigger game the Lunar gains as it can start using both broadsides but on the way in the Hero still is a solid line cruiser.

Also remember I (we?) want to drop Protector to 180pts.

Emissary,
In that case drop the dal'yth variant (grav hook only). Grav hook as option to all other variants (replacing port/starboard).

Merchant,
115pts:
6 railguns @ 45cm + 2 ion @ 30cm. Slow, yes, but 15cm is a perfect add on to an Explorer. Adding gunnery. Add Messenger to this pack and the line gets a good punch.
Hero's among them for more (only going 20cm to park themselves in front of the Explorer line).
Yeah, I see it.
For 20pts extra's you get a 135pts vessel with 8 hitpoints. A lot of work to take down, and still only few vps to gain.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Hero should be 180, far weaker broadside but slightly stronger prow than Lunars broadside.  Lance and launch should be seperated. Standard range should be 30, with an option to upgrade to 45.

Prow:
6 30cm wbs front
6 tau missles front
Broadside x2:
3 30cm wbs port/star
2 30cm ion port/front front/star
Or replace ions for 2 tau launch -/- for +30pts
Or replace ions and webs for 6 45cm wbs port/front front/star for free

That screams "We saw some IN cruisers and said, ok i can do that."

(thats basically my interpretation of a Tau version of an IN Lunar/Dictator/Tyrant.

I dont actually expect anyone to take this seriously either, this is just what feels "right" to me. 

[horizon]

eh,
is that 1 ic per side or 2 ic per side?

[AndrewChristlieb]

Sorry 1/1 same for launch (maybe a bit high on launch but theyre better than IN too).

Looking at it all written down you could leave the prow at 45 and make the upgrade +10pts for the port/star wbs and keep the ions/ launch.

[horizon]

And wbs would fire left/right only? Not front?

/
Personally I like the current floating design at 180pts.

[afterimagedan]

Wow, I'm really lost in the discussion but when you guys get some agreed upon changes, let me know and we can vote on them.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Oh no sorry the port/star weapons is a typo p/f and f/s would be correct.

So after a bit of thought I have revised my idea:

180pts and base stats as presented in Armada

Prow:
6 Tau missles firing F
4 Weapons batteries 45cm and L/F/R should be fine
Broadside:
3 Weapons batteries 45cm L/F and F/R
1 Lance 30cm L/F and F/R

This would place the Hero right at where I would expect it, 10 wbs and 2 lances in the F fire arc is slightly better than the Lunars broadside while 7 wbs and 1 lance is slighly worse. With the option to split fire you would have 5 wbs and 1 lance in each broadside if youre in the situation to use both broadsides. The 45cm weapons help overcome the price difference between loosing the 1 wb and 1 lance per side. I could see adding the Tracking Systems to this ship as a boost and to further seperate it from the carrier version (and its got that big module on the rear).

190 ish pts and base stats as presented in Armada

Prow:
6 Tau missles firing F
4 Weapons batteries 45cm and L/F/R 
Broadside:
1 Tau Launch -
1 Lance 30cm L/F and F/R

This one would still retain a decent amout of firepower and bring the lauch. The loss of the Weapons batteries and Tracking Systems (if used as they would be given over to multi role combat craft and missle control) would help bring down the upgrade cost to attack carrier.

In either case the option to upgrade the Lances to 45cm but with a restriction of one 45cm lance Hero per 2 cruisers would be nice.

Hum Im actually rather fond of this layout, still just throwing ideas around, the Hero as presented in BFG-R is fairly balanced its just awkward that all of their ships are so muddled.

[Talos]

Part of me hates what we are doing to the Hero...but making it more like Tau-ified Lunar makes it way more distinct from the protector, which is a win in my books.

I am more in favor of the version with tracking systems and launch bays, seems to fit in more with GW tau. Also in favor of long range lance version, although it should use the same restriction as protector ion variant (1:1).

[horizon]

Nah, no tracking systems to the older Hero design.

[ThaneAquilon]

I generally prefer the old (modified lances) Hero, but clearly most people don't. I found it fit with emulating the lunar hull: an all-purpose hull that can do essentially any battlefield role, which when combined with the typically Technological Ambition that is Tau, we get a cruiser that can fill any battlefield role, with the forward firing Tau flavor. This also helps explain the weird discrepency between the amount of Chaos/IN (even Eldar and Ork) cruisers and Tau cruisers.  If the reason for these proposed changes are that it would make sense that emulating an imperial cruiser would result in this, then the conclusion would be to give it stronger broadsides with more limited arcs I would presume.

Just my thoughts on the Hero, but if everyone wants to go this new direction, I'll give it a shot.

[Talos]

@ThaneAquilon I definitely see where you are coming from with your argument, and the flavor you put forth is good. I think what the others are going for is more early tau have no combat vessels yet, Hero is first combat vessel they design, EVER. So their like like how do we do this? And their all like "Hey remember that incident? Where those two IN Lunars destroyed a whole bunch of Explorers? Let's make us one of those!" So in this case, the feel is more modified Lunar than Lunar idea/concept, if I understand correctly.

As for Tau's lack of frontline cruisers, I would proably attribute that to the fact that they have been in space combat for only a few hundred years, versus the 10,000+ of the imperium. Seems reasonable to say they have had less time/interest to develop line cruisers, when they are generally peaceful.

[ThaneAquilon]

That is true, but if we bring in their ground tech, they (like IG/SM/SB/GN forces...) Develop one hull to try and do it all. Them being thousands of years behind should still yield more ships, if they didn't trust one ship to be able to do it all, in my opinion. The other concern is that Tau NEED a ship that can, at the VERY LEAST come close to competing with the Lunar in terms of conventional firefights. If they don't have any ships of the line, they lose. Plain and simple.