BFG:R Imperial Navy

[ThaneAquilon]

I prefer the 25pt buy(+1ld), 25 pt RR.

[afterimagedan]

I have been swayed.

Veteran captian 0-3 Must be assigned to a squadron.
+1 leadership for 30 points

May purchase upto one reroll for 15 points, this reroll may only be used for the veterans ship or squadron.

Cadia may take upto 5 veterans at a cost of 25 points each to represent the large number of highly trained officers.

Why does the Veteran captain have to be squadroned in the non-cadia fleet? I mean, Chaos lords don't have to do that.

1. The regular non-cadia fleet; are we looking to make it like Chaos Lords? I am thinking Secondary Commander 25pts Ld8 +25pts for 0-1 RR.

2. Cadian Fleet: they have a negative in their leadership problem. They need some sort of positive to make up for it. At this point, they are pretty much just worse than every other imperial fleet.

"You may wait until after rolling for
leadership before deciding which ships to
assign your veteran captains to."

This statement in the BFC rules makes it seem like you regularly cannot roll for Ld then apply commanders but that these VCs have the ability and that's how players of BFC make up for their crap leadership. If we are going to make it clear that everyone can now apply their commanders to their ships AFTER leadership is rolled, then this bonus of the VC is not a bonus anymore. They need some other bonus to make them exceptional so that BFC doesn't just suck OR we need to change/implement something else that makes BFC a usable choice.

[Bessemer]

I see, so what your proposing is-

1. Bastion Fleets- Place Commanders, roll Leadership, Place VC's, form squadrons.

2. Other fleets- Place commanders, place VC's, roll Leadership, form squadrons.
 
Did I get that right? I can live with that.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well I guess it does make sense that the fleet commanders are placed before leadership is rolled when you put it like that...

I dont think we should be trying to emulate Chaos Lords for IN. Theyre both very different and I see no issue in restricting them to leading squadrons as this represents what a senior captian would infact be doing (Commodore in the Royal Navy, and actually a much better name IMO than Veteran Captian)

So what we are down to is a decision of wither to make them a flat leadership 8 which I would price at 25 points or +1 leadership (max of 9) which I would price at 30 points.

One fleet commander reroll available is apparently agreed upon. As stated I see the limited use rerolls being priced lower, to 15 points as in MMS (I would apply this change to the Chaos lord also if its adopted).

Cadia it seems is agreed that they should have upto 5 and I would also apply a 5 point per unit discount to help offset the leadership penalty.

[Talos]

Agreed on limited rerolls being cheaper along with cadia discount.

[horizon]

I disagree Dan.

Picked from Ships of Mars pdf:

FLEET COMMANDER
0-1 Mechanicus Archmagos
You may include 1 Mechanicus Archmagos in your fleet, which
must be assigned to a ship and replaces its Leadership with the
value shown. If the fleet is worth 1,000 points or more, a
Mechanicus Archmagos must be included to lead it.

Very clear wording: Fleet Commander replaces Leadership (rolled for).

And here, from the Official Rulebook page :

Fleet Commander.Your fleet can be led by a commander, such as an Imperial Admiral, Chaos Warmaster, Eldar Prince or Ork Warlord. Your Fleet Commander's leadership supersedes that of the vessel it is assigned to, even if it is lower!

and page 115:

0-1 Admiral
You may include 1 Admiral in your fleet, who must be assigned to a ship and improves its Leadership to the value shown. If the fleet is worth over 750 points an Admiral must be included to lead it.

I think these examples show that fleet commanders improve (or lower) the ship's rolled value.
Lowering happens in case of Chaos per example (most expensive ship).

[afterimagedan]

I'm convinced.

But that means that whoever wrote the still for BFC didn't know the rules or played them like I did (wrongly). So yes, considering I had this wrong, BFC needs a drastic change.

[afterimagedan]

Ok, so I favor this:

Ld 8 50pts
Ld 9 75pts
Ld 10 100pts

+1 Reroll 25pts
+2 Reroll 50pts
+3 Reroll 75pts

Secondary Commanders 0-3
30pts +1Ld
+1 Reroll 15pts

Battlefleet Cadia:
Leadership for all ships 2D6, apply the lowest.
Veteran Captain 0-5
15pts +1LD
+1 Reroll 15pts


Here's my argument: The average Ld for the regular IN is 7.5 and the average Ld for BFC is 7 (is went through the math). IN has a 50% change to get Ld 6-7 and BFC has 75% to get Ld 6-7. About 3% to get Ld 9. The negative of this leadership problem will probably show up in 3-4 squadrons in BFC because of heavy heavily forced squadrons. Because of this, BFC will need to take probably 2-3 VCs to make up for the leadership problem, totaling 40-60pts. This is a Sword escort or two. The -15pts to the VCs helps account for it. That will be a 30-45pts made up for it, depending on how far you want to go. This will help make up for the downside.

[Bessemer]

Looks good, mate. Your solution to the Cadian Problem seems reasonable too. Will we be voting on this?

[afterimagedan]

Yep. let's vote if we hear mainly agreement and no contradictory convincing evidence.

[afterimagedan]

Here's my argument: The average Ld for the regular IN is 7.5 and the average Ld for BFC is 7 (is went through the math). IN has a 50% change to get Ld 6-7 and BFC has 75% to get Ld 6-7. About 3% to get Ld 9. The negative of this leadership problem will probably show up in 3-4 squadrons in BFC because of heavy heavily forced squadrons. Because of this, BFC will need to take probably 2-3 VCs to make up for the leadership problem, totaling 40-60pts. This is a Sword escort or two. The -15pts to the VCs helps account for it. That will be a 30-45pts made up for it, depending on how far you want to go. This will help make up for the downside.

More support for this argument:
Upgrade for +1 Ld is +20pts for the Vengeance. This is increasingly more important because it has a 50% change to have a higher leadership than a BFC Vengeance (depending on the number). Ships will have .5 less leadership, squadrons will help mitigate that but it pretty much forces squadrons. You will have about 2 squadrons per 1500pt game at -1 Ld, which costs about -40pts (based on vengeance point cost) total. So, BFC is a 20pt penalty per 750pts of a game.

Therefore we want about 2-3 VCs to make up for it to be about about 15 pts less (total at 30-45pts less than the regular IN fleet) considering it makes up for the LD decrease and a way to make up for it, but also forcing some squadroning to make up for it. 3 VCs make up for the BFC Ld problem and more, but also demands squadroning.

Conclusion: 15pt VC with 0-1 RR at +15pts is the best option for BFC.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Sounds good to me.

[horizon]

Good I think.

[Talos]

Good solution I think; on to the voting I suppose.

[afterimagedan]

The Endeavor smothermans out to 125.5 and that's not including the boarding bonus they get.
The Endurance smothermans out to 125.5 without the boarding bonus.
The Defiant smothermans out to 126.2.

I propose the Endeavor light cruisers be moved back to a 45 degree move and each of them put at 115pts.