BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option

[afterimagedan]

Well then since were on Novas they should not be more accurate but they should be obscenely powerful according to the fluff.

Whats the average damage for a spread of 6 torps, armor 5 2 turrets vs the current nova cannon factoring in scatter?

1.somelownumber damage per turn.

[horizon]

NC
scatter band:
0-60 1d6
>60 2d6

lock on option

Good enough for me.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The scatter I can agree on, the lock on option should be strictly to modify the damage. A re-roll of the die for damage should be sufficient.

[Talos]

So it looks like were looking at four profiles of NC:

1) Full damage with lock on damage reroll (The Liebanator for short)

2) Full damage with lock on accuracy boost (Fresh Horizons if you will)

3) d2 +2 damage with lock on accuracy boost (Same Damn Thane in local parlance)

4) Regular profile from BFG 2010 FAQ/BBB (Fear and Loathing in Los Vegas Edition)

Everybody so far seems fine with the d3 for scatter damage, so if we nail down what scatter profile to use from the following four we can make another mini-vote.

1) Regular Scatter

2) BFG:R Scatter (30-45 1d6, 46-90 2d6, 91+ 3d6

3) Horizon Scatter (0-60 1d6, 61+2d6

4) Fixed Scatter (2d6)

@afterimagedan If it's possible, maybe you can double poll in one thread to finish this issue once and for all?

[AndrewChristlieb]

Blah on any d3 d2 whatever nonsense. The last thing the Nova needs is a nerf requiring it to hit a SMALLER area.

[afterimagedan]

Blah on any d3 d2 whatever nonsense. The last thing the Nova needs is a nerf requiring it to hit a SMALLER area.

What do you mean by area? D2 and D3 "nonsense" does exactly what we want: more consistency in damage.

[horizon]

Reading material:
http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/index.php?topic=4781.msg35662#msg35662

Warp Rift 14
Nova Cannon rules from admiral d'artagnan

(issue also has article on 2 hit escorts)

[afterimagedan]

Alright,  I have to say, I am sold on the warp rift 14 rules. we would need to tweak the holofield section slightly with MMS but I think it's a great compromise of each view here.

30cm to 60cm, D6 scatter. 61cm to 150cm, 2D6 scatter. D6 damage, D3 in hole is only on base, 1 damage if the hole is off the base but template touches.  Can lock on which is a RR to the scatter die. Cannot lock on against holofields/shadowfields. Also reduced damage to necrons. 1 per 500pts. 

[horizon]

I think these rules work vs Eldar MMS holofields as well.

[AndrewChristlieb]

No D3 if hole is only on base, thats silly the template is too small for such nonsense, if someone is worried about a ship potentially taking damage on the scatter they should have braced it. D3 damage makes the nova worth even less. The Nova should not get to reroll the scatter die, it is supposed to be innacurate. If a nova scatters within 30 or over 150 there is no reason for it to just not happen at all :/. Holofield rules are convoluted. They should just force a reroll of a "hit" result. Necron reactive hull rules are silly too.

[horizon]

LockOn rejustifies the D3.
Because a scatter onto base is no direct hit (remember stem is what counts for shooting).

And the template isn't to small for this imo.

[AndrewChristlieb]

No. Those rules state D3 if it scatters, thats crap. D3 if it doesnt touch a stem is crap. Its an area of effect weapon nit a direct fire weapon.

[Talos]

@afterimagedan What do you mean by reduced damage to necrons? They don't take less damage from standard plasma torpedoes, so why would they take less from a massive plasma explosion? More importantly, what is the WR #14 rules vs. necrons?

I kind of see both sides of this argument; one hand the suggested profile makes the Nova Cannon impossible to spam and generally more deadly, albeit requiring yet another special order from a fleet that has to make one for every other ship, every turn. That is a fairly significant drawback, we are suggesting all these profiles on the thought that the NC vessel will be locked on: as an IN player I know as well as you all do that over two thirds of your ships already require RO special orders or LO, and making NC lock on to be effective makes it so that literraly everything but your gun escorts will be on SO all the time, and IN have only stock leadership. On the other hand it does really go against the spirit of the NC, which is a devastating mega doom blast that can envelop whole escort squadrons and reduce them to ash.

Not sure which side I stand on, but I do know this; in fluff anyway (plus rogue trader), it can fire less often (every other turn). I know in BFG if it only fired every other turn, it could be a lot more powerful at any rate.
And that a bigger pieplate isn't feasible for this game, even though the NC template should be the small blast template from w40k.

[afterimagedan]

In the old rules without the D3 when it wasn't over the stem, you would have 38.88% change to hit where you get to roll D6 to damage.  In the rules we are talking about, with lock-on, it's 59.26%.  What this new rules is about is direct hits doing more damage that not direct hits. Even AOE things have that effect too.

[afterimagedan]

@afterimagedan What do you mean by reduced damage to necrons? They don't take less damage from standard plasma torpedoes, so why would they take less from a massive plasma explosion? More importantly, what is the WR #14 rules vs. necrons?

against Eldar and Necrons, it has reduced damage because the Eldar had the 2+ Holofield save but no shields to get through before doing damage.  This makes it not able to lock-on while shooting at Eldar (because of holofield targeting problems) and D3 to Necrons because they do not have shields. Personally, I don't think we should have either of these rules anymore because Eldar will receive the benefit on not having lock-on against them, and in MMS, Eldar have higher hits and shields. Also, against Necrons, it depends if we take the Necron armor saves from the old rules or the BFG:R ones that streamline it at 4+ (which I prefer).

I kind of see both sides of this argument; one hand the suggested profile makes the Nova Cannon impossible to spam and generally more deadly, albeit requiring yet another special order from a fleet that has to make one for every other ship, every turn. That is a fairly significant drawback,

it isn't really in my games. When the IN or AdMech player takes NCs, he holds the whole fleet back (like against the back of the table) to get some shots off before engaging. He almost always keeps his launch craft back by his vessels and so there is hardly any need for special orders until you are getting closer. Our table is the standard 6ft by 4 ft (or around 180cm by 120cm.)

we are suggesting all these profiles on the thought that the NC vessel will be locked on: as an IN player I know as well as you all do that over two thirds of your ships already require RO special orders or LO, and making NC lock on to be effective makes it so that literraly everything but your gun escorts will be on SO all the time, and IN have only stock leadership. On the other hand it does really go against the spirit of the NC, which is a devastating mega doom blast that can envelop whole escort squadrons and reduce them to ash.

Not sure which side I stand on, but I do know this; in fluff anyway (plus rogue trader), it can fire less often (every other turn). I know in BFG if it only fired every other turn, it could be a lot more powerful at any rate.
And that a bigger pieplate isn't feasible for this game, even though the NC template should be the small blast template from w40k.