BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option

[horizon]

Stronger NC -> 1 per 750 or 1 per 1000, hey why not.
The restriction is to avoid spam.

[afterimagedan]

IN: NC, can lock on, uses current BFG:R rules, D3+1 damage, limited to 1 per 750pts.
AdMech: NC, can lock on , uses current BFG:R rules, D2+3 damage, limited to 1 per 750pts.

[Talos]

True...it's sad that we have to; if someone came to a game against me with 8 slaughters, 5 iconoclasts and a basic leader, it would be perfectly legit. But I would give them a look, sort of like "Why don't we just go play chess then?".

Spam is spam and is never inherently the fault of the system, unless the spam is the only viable way to play the mechanic.
Ex. Tyranid capital ships in faq 2010 without evolution of the hive mind are stupidly weak. Almost hilariously so. But with those options people make the Uber-Hive Ships because any other combination is too weak.

Ex. IN can spam NC. But you can play IN quite fine without NC at all, let alone a half-dozen, so the problem is entirely players, not the game mechanic.

@ afterimagedan d2+3 across board, but AdMech have easy access i.e. one per 500.

[afterimagedan]

D2+3 including lock-on seems excessive to me.

[Talos]

Still less damage potential then the torpedoes (max 5 on unshielded target vs. 6 hits on 6 turret target)
And if your basically only allowed two, that's hardly abusable at all. Heck, considering your paying twenty points for less damage, all your gaining is range which even then has many restrictions like minimum firing distance, no firing it on AAF, CTNH, BR or BFI.

[ThaneAquilon]

d3+2 is too much. You have more than a 50% chance to hit with lock on, torpedoes have 1/3 per torpedo (assuming armour 5). Even with d2+2 it will still be more damaging on average than 6 torpedoes (counting dropping shields). Plus with all those restrictions, remember that you are gaining the ability to destroy ships at 100cm with no retribution! That is insanely powerful, and no torpedo fired by IN will do damage at that range, ever.

[afterimagedan]

People still use the NC now without the rules changes or even lock-on and we are looking for a way to restrict NC spam. Why? Because people are aware of the NCs power. We are looking to boost it, or at least make it more consistent. My question is, how much are we going to do this? At this point, it is proposed to add a lock-on feature (making it hit more than 50% of the time), and making the damage much more consistent. I am just worried about making it a guaranteed 4 damage, with the option of getting 5.

NCs cannot be blocked by ordnance, cannot be negated by turrets, and cannot be show before they hit you. Yes, you can't use AAF, CTNH, BR, or BFI while using it, but who's going to do that all that often? LO orders are going to be what is done every turn except maybe 1.

Also, how do you guys deploy before a game? This makes a big difference as to how effective NCs are.

[afterimagedan]

d3+2 is too much. You have more than a 50% chance to hit with lock on, torpedoes have 1/3 per torpedo (assuming armour 5). Even with d2+2 it will still be more damaging on average than 6 torpedoes (counting dropping shields). Plus with all those restrictions, remember that you are gaining the ability to destroy ships at 100cm with no retribution! That is insanely powerful, and no torpedo fired by IN will do damage at that range, ever.

That's why D2+2 with restricted numbers and LO makes sense to me. Consistent damage while retaining rarity.  This makes 2 NC per IN fleet the norm now, and I expect those will be devastating.

[ThaneAquilon]

People still use the NC now without the rules changes or even lock-on and we are looking for a way to restrict NC spam. Why? Because people are aware of the NCs power. We are looking to boost it, or at least make it more consistent. My question is, how much are we going to do this? At this point, it is proposed to add a lock-on feature (making it hit more than 50% of the time), and making the damage much more consistent. I am just worried about making it a guaranteed 4 damage, with the option of getting 5.[\quote]

This. No other component will do 4-5 dmg more than 50% of the time. Frankly with our rules modifications, I'm worried about facing even two, as the potential is great (I do play some pretty fragile fleets to be fair) to wipe me turn 1 (effectively).

[Talos]

He (me and Thane) have only played on small tables so far (6x3 1/2 dinner table, deployed width wise is pretty typical) and so the long range of a NC has admittedly never been a big advantage, since I am firing 60cm lances turn 1-2, depending if he starts or I do.

@ ThaneAquilon I don't really understand this wiping the field thing you speak of. Assuming two success SO checks, you are still not supremely likely to hit with both of them, and against eldar that's one escort, two if you hit with both. If it was fired at the Voidstalker (which would probably brace, it being first turn), you would probably inflict glancing damage (1-2) damage, even if both were to hit. Doesn't seem mathematically overpowered anyway....

More extreme, but you could also drop the damage to d3 but make that the damage for the entire template, less powerful generally but more in line with fluff.

[ThaneAquilon]

it scores 3-4 hits. An elday ship has 1 shield, that's 2-3 hits through, plus 1 crit is likely. That cripples almost every eldar ship. That's with 1 nova. And for the 1500 game we're playing tonight, I'll have 3 CLs that would get instagib'd by that, losing liek 450 points plus leaders right off the bat. Hollofields force rerolls on hits, but against every other fleet, it is more liekly to hit than ANYTHING else. so it's way more consistent.

[Talos]

Could be wrong but how many CL does the average eldar fleet run? To my knowledge it was always just VS, tons of escorts and 1-2 light cruisers. And for MMS, what are the odds of a NC actually getting to fire twice? Somethings seriously wrong if you haven't closed the gap/ found cover by then (and against eldar lock-on turning restrictions is a pretty big liability). My observations were against a normal eldar fleet composition; obviously like any other weapon or ability it has the potential to devastate a very specific fleet, but that's not unique to the NC. Running an all carnage/iconoclast fleet would be hard on eldar, but is that the fault of the carnage? No.

As horizon would say, if you can't cope with a rare long range weapon then you deserve to get pounded. He may have been referring to getting within 15cm of batteries but the spirit of the argument is the same.

As for accuracy, how do you figure? Even through turrets a torpedo volley will equal or exceed that since it can fire every turn and can turn while doing so.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Were off topic guys, Tyrant remember .

I say since we are so on the fence about this why not allow the nova optuon BUT only in the gothic sector list and lessen the restrictions on other fleets taking a Dominator. Heck do that for the Lunar with nova as well. Retcon an Apoclapyse in and the Gothic sector has its nich.

Nova discussion thread?

[afterimagedan]

Well, I suppose we can keep this thread on the Tyrant and NC because at this point, the discussions are related.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well then since were on Novas they should not be more accurate but they should be obscenely powerful according to the fluff.

Whats the average damage for a spread of 6 torps, armor 5 2 turrets vs the current nova cannon factoring in scatter?