BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option

[Sigoroth]

The problem with the NC isn't its actual damage output, it's the unpredictability, as you've mentioned. This means that it becomes very difficult for the opponent to decided whether or not to brace. Over-bracing can be just as bad as under-bracing, and both will likely occur, since it's a crap shoot either way. Spamming NC can either relieve or exacerbate the problem. If the NC player focusses his fire on 1 or 2 ships, the problem is alleviated; the defender knows to brace. If he spreads his fire across the opponent's entire fleet however, the problem is exacerbated; the defender now faces this dilemma en mass.

In my experience people typically tend to focus fire. However, the fear of mass NC spam derives from people's reaction to a single NC and simply imagining more of the same. I do not think that massed NCs is really all that much of a problem in a typical game on a typically sized board.

However, consider that no ships had the option to take the NC. Not the Tyrant, Lunar or Armageddon or even Ad Mech ships. Then the only sources would be Dominators (not available in every list), Mars (fairly expensive ship) and Apocalypses (not tremendous vessels and a large points sink to get a NC). Even if you had a list that had access to all 3 ships and wanted to spam NC you'd have a boring fleet.

Having the option to take NCs on different ships allows for NC spam with a little versatility. Having to pay way over the odds to get it is just a price you pay for getting easy access to something that makes a lot of opponents uneasy.

[afterimagedan]

Actually, I do think we should have a NC change, and probably do it now that we are talking about the IN fleet.  Personally, I would like to see it more accurate but do a little less damage.  When we played a game with the NC rules that are in the current BFG:R, (D6 if the hole is over the stem, D3 if it is not on the stem but still touching the base, and 1 if the template touches the base but the hole is not over it, PLUS the ability to lock-on which allows a RR of the shot), the NC was really powerful. In fact, there was a game where two of his AdMech cruisers NCed my Despoiler, he hit with the first, I decided not to brace, he rolled a 6, shot it again, I braced, he rolled a 5, I braced 1. Crippled battleship in 1 turn. We were both bored after that. True, the rolls were extreme, but fluke rolls should be drastic in climactic parts of the game, not just a turn one lucky nova shot.

WIth a lock-on option, NCs hit with D6 damage about 55% of the time. 33% to roll at hit on the scatter, and if it's a miss, ad additional 33% to hit again.

SO, I think NCs should have the lock-on capability, making them a bit more accurate, but make their damage D6-1 (min 1), D3, and 1. This would make the NC more consistent in it's damage dealing but not have as much of a chance to have game-ruining results. Commence tomato throwing... 

[Talos]

@ afterimagedan Tomatoes? Where are you from buddy? In canada we throw snowballs, or if it's summer maybe a potato because it has more heft.

You are right that the reroll makes it much better, and I agree it could be difficult to deal with a bunch of good rolls.
But again, I have had 2 strength torpedo volleys deal 2 damage and 2 criticals once to my emperor battleship, with turrets active, so NC is hardly the only weapon capable of being swingy.

I don't want the reroll because it's mechanically sound; I want it because I love the novels and more importantly am a long time rogue trader fan, and locking on to try to give your 2-gauge shotgun a bit less recoil seems like a good idea.

I also which the template was bigger, even if it means only d3 hits. Fluff has this thing terrifying escort squardons, whereas currently your better off launching a torpedo volley into that same squadron instead.

[ThaneAquilon]

@Talos I don't think I hit your Emp with small voleys like that, that was your CLs, which admittedly I got lucky with some crits. The ones for your Emp were custodian I believe, as my emmissaries were taken out pretty early. And they have str 3 .

I agree that the randomness of the thing makes it hard to invest 20 points in it, but it's destructive potential is amazing. I've seen Talos fire and hit with 2 novas in the same turn, and not even get through my shields (custodian), but a glancing BFG:R hit one-shoted my ship (with the help a crit). So while the first voley sucked, and were worthless, they still made me consider bracing and psychological impact (and torpedoes would never have hit at that range anyway), while the second, torpedoes would still have done nothing, and that ship was an enormous setback, ending in a game loss for me. the ship was an Aurora, by the way.

So all that to say I don't think it should have a larger blast (imagine destroying my 6 strong squad of aconites/hellebores with a single shot, there's the game), nor should it be cheaper. If you have the ability to destroy my ships at huge range while I can't do a thing about it, you better be paying through the nose to have that ability (even if it doesn't always pan out). Even long range lances are epensive to get (in the form of battlecruisers) and they are more consistent, but less potentially damaging. I do agree that if it can lock on, it should be slightly less damaging, or more consitent (1d6-1, or like 1d2+2 or 3 or something, so that it has a minimum damage that is effective as well, thus negating a potential useless point sink).

[afterimagedan]

Hmm, I like your D2+2 option. That means a consistent 3 damage, at least, and half the time 4. Not able to get 5-6 anymore, but also not able to get 1-2.  I like it.

[horizon]

I need to poke admiral d' artagnan. He had some solid NC ideas.


//and if we can't agree on a new mechanic let us atleast lower the scatter range to 2d6.

(I do like the scatter aspect).

[ThaneAquilon]

I like the scatter, but I like the varying scatter. If we make it 2d6, then it should consistently be 2d6. I prefer 1d2/2d6/3d6 ranges, but that's just me.

As an aside, is it inconceivable that a mechanicus reffit could be made to lower/change the way things scatter? make their novas slightly better than standard IN novas, for a (further) cost?

[Talos]

BFG:R has the updated scatter ranges 45cm and less: 1d6 46-90: 2d6 over 90 3d6cm.

The template thing would never work in BFG, admittedly. It was more just whimsical thinking of the flufftastic awesomeness.

Making it less potentially damaging is somewhat of a hit, but I don't mind listening to the community some more before I cry too much.

Interesting point on AdMech, I'm not sure how but maybe someone else has a suggestion?

[ThaneAquilon]

Ah didn't notice the bands in BFG:R.

It may hurt that they have less potential, but if you hit two on my custodian again, it would for sure deal damage this time. It's a give and take, right? Slightly less max damage, way more min damage. 3d12 vs 2d12+6. It just makes it more consitent, and worth the 20 point investment, without having the ability to uterly destroy half my fleet bofore I can even move.

[Talos]

Like I said, I really doubt people would ever shift on making the NC cheaper. It wouldn't be overpowered no, but it works right now so why change it? That's what most people think it seems.

@ThaneAquilon I stand corrected on the torpedo volley, it was a shrunken down emmisary volley into an endeavour as I now recall.

d2+2 hmm? That's actually pretty nifty and I could play it as that, but it does mean you need multiples to be really effective, unlike torpedoes where 1 strength 6 volley is dangerous, even without counting combined ordnance or 1 turret targets.

Still, that seems pretty functional actually, even if it does deviate from the established fluff. But were doing that on the tyrant and no one (including me) gives a hoot, so we shall see.

[ThaneAquilon]

@Talos I do think it would be close to broken without the premium. I know you'll USE 2, you generally do, but you don't NEED to, having one component deal 1-2 damage on standard cruisers, and destroy 1-4 escorts (depending on climping) beyond extreme range is really good, and that's with just one. And with lock-on you're reeeeaally likely to get a Hit!.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well ya the Nova should be free. Reguardless of actual output it should be limited due to the rarity. Bring the hate.

[afterimagedan]

Well ya the Nova should be free. Reguardless of actual output it should be limited due to the rarity. Bring the hate.

[horizon]

Andrew is spot on.

The Nova Cannon is a rare weapon. Making it stronger and then heavily restricted is, in my opinion, a good idea.

[Talos]

BFG:R restricts it to one per 500 point portion.

So basically 2 in small games, 3 in big games. Which is honestly pretty the much the max IN players run, since you also want a stroing torpedo presence.