BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option

[afterimagedan]

No, just for the scatter.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well it all seems fine then, like I said the 1:500 should be ok and will really only allow one more at 1500 compared to the 750 (average anyway for what most people play, of course the higher you go the more you will be able to take.

1:750 if the average damage is raised or if the average is leveled off (such as d2+2 which drops 1,2,5,6 in favor of a much more consistant output and therefor spam).

As I said previously the D3 on the base would be fine so long as the stem hit was boosted, otherwise its a pointless nerf (1d6 represents the same chance all across).

[afterimagedan]

Well it all seems fine then, like I said the 1:500 should be ok and will really only allow one more at 1500 compared to the 750 (average anyway for what most people play, of course the higher you go the more you will be able to take.
yeah, 500 does seem more appropriate
1:750 if the average damage is raised or if the average is leveled off (such as d2+2 which drops 1,2,5,6 in favor of a much more consistant output and therefor spam).
I don't see why more consistent would have any more or less spam. Making the damage more consistent makes games less random, which is something I would rather have more of. D6 damage on the NC makes it too varied for my taste.
As I said previously the D3 on the base would be fine so long as the stem hit was boosted, otherwise its a pointless nerf (1d6 represents the same chance all across).
you have swayed me in this argument. If we go with the D3 option, we are making it less of an AOE template weapon and more of a direct shot weapon with some (very little) area effect.

However, giving the NC a boost like this with no downside, we will see people max out NCs and that will be one of those things you just have to do. Tighter scatter (the tighter the scatter, the higher the percentage to get the full D6 damage roll), lock-on option (a massive boost, makes it more than 50% to direct hit), and D6 with hole on base (again, adds to the percentage of D6 damage hit, cumulative with the fact that the scatter ranges are smaller), makes the NC much much more powerful than any version we have seen so far. There needs to be more restriction to this than 1 per 500. Be prepared to see 3 NCs with these new rules every game against IN if this rules set is adopted. Plus, 1 per 500 is not making the NC look very rare. In 1500, you will have 5-7 cruisers and 3 will have NCs = not rare.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Ok im confused now are you for or against 1:500?

The consistency makes the weapon a much better choice. I dont take novas very often now because for every shot i take theres a really good chance that i do nothing at all, even on a direct hit. If you give the nova a boost to accuracy and eliminate the high/low it becomes a gimme. Why wouldnt i take as many as possible and hammer at least a point or 2 of practically guaranteed damage? With the D6 theres still a chance that it might be absorbed by shields, and its not an automatic "i am or I am not bracing" theres some arguement either way, 50% chance of scatter and a 50% chance of one hit or less on a two shield ship i might risk it if i need another special order. Guaranteed 1 or 2 hits? Ill just take them if i need another special order no question.

I agree the boost to damage is not required if the accuracy is boosted. Although a 4,5, or 6 on a hit and a 1,2 or 3 on a miss would be sweet .

So like i said with an accurate but large swing i think 1:500 is fine, accurate and increased chance of either more consistent average or just higher average damage then 1:750.

[afterimagedan]

Ok im confused now are you for or against 1:500?

The consistency makes the weapon a much better choice. I dont take novas very often now because for every shot i take theres a really good chance that i do nothing at all, even on a direct hit.
true, but the question is how accurate do we want it to make? We went from 33-38% to 55-58%.

If you give the nova a boost to accuracy and eliminate the high/low it becomes a gimme. Why wouldnt i take as many as possible and hammer at least a point or 2 of practically guaranteed damage? With the D6 theres still a chance that it might be absorbed by shields, and its not an automatic "i am or I am not bracing" theres some arguement either way, 50% chance of scatter and a 50% chance of one hit or less on a two shield ship i might risk it if i need another special order. Guaranteed 1 or 2 hits? Ill just take them if i need another special order no question. Still, the damage of 3-4 or 1-6 averages the same. 3-4 is a better choice because it isn't as extreme based on on single D6 roll. EIther it does next to nothing (roll a 1 or 2), or it is massive (5-6). 3-4 does make it more consistent and the NC becomes less game changing based on one dice role. BUT, I am willing to compromise.

I agree the boost to damage is not required if the accuracy is boosted. Although a 4,5, or 6 on a hit and a 1,2 or 3 on a miss would be sweet . and you are worried about rules that encourage spamming? 55% chance to do 4-6 damage?!? 


So like i said with an accurate but large swing i think 1:500 is fine, accurate and increased chance of either more consistent average or just higher average damage then 1:750.
agree to disagree. I thought we were trying to make novas rare but powerful. This is just making it powerful but not more rare.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Oh im good with this:

what about this... D6 if touched by the hole, can lock on, Eldar can make you reroll scatter die, cancels with lock on,  limit 1 per 750. necrons don't need special rules if we have the new reactive hull rules.

, Im just not sold on the need to restrict them to two at 1500. What i was trying to get across is that these rules should be fine at 1:500 and with a damage boost 1:750, its not really much of a boost anyway that other 45% of the time you going to do no damage (maybe one point on the scatter :/) and you would get less shots. But i can live with 750, just not sure how te nova lovers are going to feel about it .

[Talos]

I don't really know how I feel any more...I personally think that since everyone one of us working on BFG:R right now prefers balanced fleets, NC spam is not something we need to worry about. I personally would never run more than three in 1500pts, because you really lose out on torpedoes if you do. And therefore suck a lot more at close range, which is what your trying to close to as an IN player. I always felt the NC was intended, in BFG, to be used to soften up the enemy as you close in, right before you scatter/blow them to shit with your torpedoes and then turn to port and waste them with broadsides. I know there are many ways to play IN, but I never see long-range sniping as the way to go. So for me, restricting past 1:500 is pretty needless, when any player worth their salt is going to abide by that normally, even without it written down. Barring unique scenarios and purely casual silliness.

[afterimagedan]

Before making these rules, how many NCs would you consider NC spam at 1500 pts?

[Talos]

At 750 pts:
1-2 reasonable, 3 questionable 4+spam

At 1500pts:
1-3 reasonable, 4 questionable, 5+spam

Just my opinion, though. For some people 2 at 1500pts is mad spamming whereas others like their 4 dominator + admiral fleets at 750pts.

[afterimagedan]

At 750 pts:
1-2 reasonable, 3 questionable 4+spam

At 1500pts:
1-3 reasonable, 4 questionable, 5+spam

Just my opinion, though. For some people 2 at 1500pts is mad spamming whereas others like their 4 dominator + admiral fleets at 750pts.

You can't have 4 novas at 750. 3 NCs is 570 minimum. That's 76% of your points into NC armed ships.

[AndrewChristlieb]

3 is the max at 750. Id be ok with 2 at anytime, id be ok with 4 in a 1500-2000 larger games? Im looking at facing about 10 at least this weekend (unless my admech buddy has decided on a new tactic...) plus the typical 2 or 3 that i expect the IN players to bring and im ok with that.

So what will the requirements be for Admech also?

[afterimagedan]

OK,  1 per 500pts, D6 when the hole hits the base, lock on, 30-60cm D6 scatter, 61+cm 2D6. holofields make you reroll scatter dice, cancels with lock on.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Admech are going to be the issue now. Do they remain unrestricted, have the same 1:500, or something else? No more Nova armed capitols than those without a Nova?

Oh and the Tyrant issue, were still split on the matter.

[Talos]

@afterimagedan Errr...right, sorry about that. Logic escaped me there, but I caught it and its back in its cage.

@AndrewChristlieb 10 NC's? That's pretty spamarific. If IN is limited to 1:500,  maybe 2:750 for AdMech? That would give them an extra one at 1500pts, along with more access.

I am quite happy with the profile presented below, with the 1:500 restriction of course (for IN anyway). As for the tyrant issue, as the most vocal supporter of no NC on it, I am changing my vote to allow it. As Sig has pointed out, it will almost never be used anyway, and even then only with the long range batteries...which costs a lot more than a dominator, so whatever. Community, you have won this round but I will be back !

[afterimagedan]

2:750 is what I was thinking too. Glad you came around to allowing the NC on the Tyrant! Ok, so it's official

Everyone, vote for those NC stats.