September 18, 2024, 03:21:05 PM

Poll

Assuming the Sigoroth Tyrant is adopted, should it be allowed to take a Nova Cannon for +20pts?

Yes
6 (60%)
No
4 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Voting closed: October 27, 2012, 12:45:11 AM

Author Topic: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option  (Read 20879 times)

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #60 on: October 26, 2012, 04:34:36 PM »
But to maintain maximum distance, your going to need to do some BR special orders to hold there, and the NC is stymied by terrain, which since torpedoes are shotgunned is not an issue for them. If your opponent is SM or Eldar, they will have no problem hiding behind some celestial phenomena until you rolls fail and you have to move forward.

As for save based stuff, the reroll works fine; I don't like the idea of any kind of "save" for eldar, because it doesn't seem to adequately demonstrate their ability to not be their in the first place. That's why although horizons MMS rules for lances (invulnerability save at long range) works fine, but I prefer the penalty to hit from plaxor's work (lances requiring higher rolls to hit). If we keep saves to BFI and necron it helps distinguish the holofield/agility of eldar from the living indestructible metal of the 'crons.

Speaking of the tinheads, I am in favor of across the board 4+ saves, with the modified prices of course. Same metal after all. ;)

As for the AOE, the NC should not even have a 1 damage zone if we are catering to fluff on this; 1d3 is fine, but really it should affect anything under the template; the thing creates a freakin' localised sun. I know necrons bathe in those but everyone else tends to die when thrown into the sun.

Offline shephammer

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #61 on: October 26, 2012, 04:39:38 PM »
Let's try to make playability the number one concern.

Trying to match the nova cannon to the fluff could lead to game rules that are not fun.  And fun is the only thing we are trying to have.

What is NOT fun for the imperial navy player?

Watching 4 or 5 of his novas scatter completely off target due to large scatter distances.

What is NOT fun for his opponent?

A turn 1 crippled battleship or 4 or 5 different capital ships on brace for impact.


I don't care what the fluff says a nova cannon does.  The range of potential scatter distance should be tightened up so that the imperial player enjoys the shooting phase.

And likewise the range of potential damage caused by a hit should be tightened up as well.  The variation between rolling a 1 and rolling a 6 on a D6 is outrageous.

If the nova changes are handled well, then there would be no need for nova spam restrictions.

I'm currently in support of the <60 D6 scatter, >60 2D6 scatter, and I'm also in support of "If central hole is over the BASE of a model it takes D3 hits, if the nova marker is over the base but not the hole, 1 damage."

I don't think the stem should be invovled.  If you include the stem, what you are saying is really, "if you roll a hit, extra damage"  I don't like that.  I like that the larger ships are more vulnerable to novas.  If the D3 was stem only, then a space hulk is as easy to hit with a nova as a cobra destroyer.  Lets have large bases be a vulnerability on this weapon.

To people who fear the nova cannon getting out of hand.  It helps to keep in mind that it is the only weapon that can't be fired at targets within range, it is exclusively front firing on a ship with poor turning, and it doesn't fire through almost all terrain.  It needs to get fairly impressive damage up early, becuase it will be literally shut-off after one or two turns.

If anyone wants to get a little bit more intimate with current nova cannon accuracy, I cooked up these numbers about the BBB nova.  They take into account a miss and scatter as well as hits.

D6 damage on large based ship within 45cm: 66%
 1 damage on large based ship within 45cm: 22%
D6 damage on large based whip between 46cm and 60cm: 37%
 1 damage on large based whip between 46cm and 60cm: 15%
D6 damage on large based ship between 61cm and 150cm: 33%
 1 damage on large based ship between 61cm and 150cm: 3%

D6 damage on small based ship within 45cm: 55%
 1 damage on small based ship within 45cm: 22%
D6 damage on small based whip between 46cm and 60cm: 35%
 1 damage on small based whip between 46cm and 60cm: 4%
D6 damage on small based ship between 61cm and 150cm: 33%
 1 damage on small based ship between 61cm and 150cm: 1%

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #62 on: October 26, 2012, 04:46:11 PM »
@shephammer You humble me with the truth; nothing trumps fun. Nothing. Having slapped myself for you, lets proceed.

Interesting point on the NC central hole thingymabobber; large ships being more vulnerable is both mechanically and fluffingly sound. I will be having a game with ThaneAquilon vs. his eldar in a couple of hours; I will let you know how that goes, because we are going to try LO NC with d2+2 for direct hits. Hopefully I get a shot in...

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #63 on: October 26, 2012, 04:54:12 PM »
Fair points by both.

So if we make it the old rules where the hole just has to touch the base, I think we should make it a more consistent damage ESPECIALLY because there are times where terrain only allow you to take 1 NC shot per gun per game. So, what about:

-lock-on, but lock-on negated by holofields.
-D2+2 is the hole is on the base
-Admiral Warprift 14 range bands (much less scattering means more D2+2 hits without the hole over stem rule)

?????

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #64 on: October 26, 2012, 04:56:56 PM »
That would work pretty good actually.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #65 on: October 26, 2012, 05:14:52 PM »
what about choosing either D2+2 or D6? like different types of ammo? You can play conservatively or take the gamble.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2012, 06:11:06 PM »
Why not just make it an automatic 3 hits then??? Oh and ill be spamming those, because with a greater than 50% shot at hitting im taking 6 and nuking a cruiser first turn every game.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2012, 06:38:13 PM »
automatic 3 is less than D6. I'm not sure what you are proposing dude. Can you write what you think it should be?

Offline Talos

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2012, 06:43:55 PM »
@AndrewChristlieb Hey man, its just a game. I can't speak for everyone else here, but were trying to improve the overall experience of BFG. Like with allowing the NC on the tyrant, which I do not support, it's impossible to make everyone happy, so we have to make compromises to enhance the overall experience. If you are very strongly opposed to the current NC discussion, throw out the closest NC rule system to the proposed one that you are willing to accept, and like me (I love NC very, very much) you will get some say, but have to compromise somewhat.

As for different ammo types, it is interesting but it seems most BFG players prefer the game as simple as possible; in some instances I think people almost want a game of checkers over an actual miniature game, but I digress.

I think d2+2 would be fine, with d2 for splash damage and our LO and new range bands, with restrictions. Its more accurate against capitals (if SO intensive) if less explosive while being less damaging but much more disruptive to escorts (clumped up escorts are fair game, scattered ones are low profile). Not too much different than torpedoes in that sense: easier to hit a large base, but likely to inflict less damage. Smaller bases are harder to hit, but if they are grouped up too closely you'll throw the whole squadron into disarray. And this keep the benefit of the direct hit tangible; more damage but not overwhelmingly so.

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2012, 06:52:10 PM »
Viewing it from a higher level a d2+2 mechanic seems rather unfriendly if you want to streamline something.
I dislike it.

D3 & D6 are known & used variants.

Talos,
simple/less rules means it is easier to balance. The more you add the harder it is to maintance balance.

At the moment I prefer the admiral d' artagnan variant. The Eldar effect to be discussed.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2012, 07:05:01 PM »
well, we could just use the D6, hole on base, lock-on but not for Eldar rules.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2012, 07:12:21 PM »
...plus fleet restrictions of course

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2012, 08:50:05 PM »
Id be ok with D3 on the base if a stem hit was supremly devistating D3+3 would be a good start. Justifies the upgrade cost and the restrictions.

1D6 under, 2D6 over 60 is fine for scatter. Scatter under 30 or over 150 works as normal. (an interesting although more complicated alternative would be for shots that scatter under 30 or over 150 that hole over stem cause d3 only (under due to no explosion, over due to kenetic loss) and hole over base one auto hit only, under 30 the "blast" has no effect.

I know some people hate the idea but i still like reload on the nova, especially with lock on now.

Eldar reroll scatter die (automatic even if it missed)

Necron take their saves and stop complaining something might scratch the finish.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline afterimagedan

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2012, 09:25:58 PM »
what about this... D6 if touched by the hole, can lock on, Eldar can make you reroll scatter die, cancels with lock on,  limit 1 per 750. necrons don't need special rules if we have the new reactive hull rules.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Vote 5: Sigoroth Tyrant NC Option
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2012, 11:19:36 PM »
Not sure on the Necron hull ill have to reread it. 1:500 should be fine unless its getting a significant boost in average damage. Lock on lets you reroll scatter and damage?
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.