BFG:R Vote 1: Tyrant Stats

[afterimagedan]

After a discussion with Horizon, I have decided to start up voting of rules changes for BFG:R.  BFG:R should always be about the community's input and there are some excellent rules changes that should happen. Lets' do that now that BFG:R is being finished. We are in phase 1 of finishing BFG:R: Fleets and Ships.

So here is the first vote: should we change the Tyrant? If so, should we adopt Sigoroth's stats? Some other stat line? Voting ends in 5 days.

[Talos]

For what it's worth, I think it should also lose the NC option as well as getting the Sigoroth profile.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Hum well I voted for a different stat line on accident. I think it should retain the nova option.

[Talos]

In all honesty, it probably depends on the fleet lists that end up being finalized. As of now, no lists really allows the dominator, so you pretty much have to pay premium for NC option in every other list. If there is more access to the dominator then previously, then the tyrant can keep it's NC option with my blessing.

[afterimagedan]

Hum well I voted for a different stat line on accident. I think it should retain the nova option.

I believe I set it so you can change your vote. If not, YOU'RE STUCK WITH IT 

[afterimagedan]

Hum well I voted for a different stat line on accident. I think it should retain the nova option.

Well I suppose the NC option wasn't really included in the vote but maybe should have been. Let's get some opinion on this.

Should we keep the Nova Cannon option for the Tyrant if we change to the Sigoroth stats?

[AndrewChristlieb]

The Tyrant with nova and range upgrade should remain as an option. Coming at the enemy from an angle engaging a target with nova and one with the ranged broadsides is still the best tactic for nova use and the Tyrant is the only cruiser capable. Its a pricy option but the next cheapest ship that can do this is the Armageddon and it has prereqs on top of that.

[afterimagedan]

How do we then make sure to distinguish this ship from the Dominator?

[Talos]

I just feel that in our drive to make the tyrant viable, we are literary removing all that makes the dominator pretty unique to the IN. The tyrant batteries are fine, and the range increase is cool. Nova cannon is fine in a vacuum, but since the dominator exists, we need to keep in mind that the two become really similar. As it stands, with Sigoroth's revision the only difference is that the dominator costs 10 points less and is much more restricted...which doesn't sound too bad, but no other cruisers have identical loadouts at different prices in such a manner. Just food for thought...

The NC option seems really swingy, because a vanilla dominator is better than a tyrant with just NC, hands down.

We could make the dominator more common on our fleet lists, which would solve the problem right there. Nip it at the bud, I say.

[Sigoroth]

How do we then make sure to distinguish this ship from the Dominator?

In what way? You mean model wise? If so, well, it hasn't been a problem so far. The Tyrant with NC option has existed since the game came out and has always looked exactly like a Dominator.

I just feel that in our drive to make the tyrant viable, we are literary removing all that makes the dominator pretty unique to the IN. The tyrant batteries are fine, and the range increase is cool. Nova cannon is fine in a vacuum, but since the dominator exists, we need to keep in mind that the two become really similar. As it stands, with Sigoroth's revision the only difference is that the dominator costs 10 points less and is much more restricted...which doesn't sound too bad, but no other cruisers have identical loadouts at different prices in such a manner. Just food for thought...

The NC option seems really swingy, because a vanilla dominator is better than a tyrant with just NC, hands down.

We could make the dominator more common on our fleet lists, which would solve the problem right there. Nip it at the bud, I say.

The Dominator is supposed to be pretty rare. We shouldn't be just throwing it in any old fleet list. It deserves to be rare. We could make it a more distinctive option by disallowing NC upgrades throughout the fleet, including on the Tyrant, Lunar and Armageddon. However, fluff says some ships were refitted with NC and it's becoming more common, blah, blah, blah. Having to pay over the odds for an optional upgrade is fine. Of course, 20 pts is way over the odds, but NC spam isn't really something to be encouraged anyway.

The only time it becomes an issue is when dealing with a list that has access to both the Tyrant and the Dominator. And then only when upgrading the NC and not the range on the Tyrant. Sure, in this case it would be better to just take the Dom. But is that a problem? A Dominator is only 190 pts whereas a NC Lunar is 200 and they're also equivalent. It's not worth 10 pts to exchange those 6WBs for 2L but no big deal is being made about NC Lunars. Sure the NC Tyrant is an identical layout to a Dom at +10 pts, but we know that the Dom is a cheaper NC alternative anyway from the Dom/Lunar example. If it was fine there I don't see why it isn't fine in the Dom/Tyrant example.

To be honest though, I don't think this should be much of an issue. I imagine that lists that have easy access to the Dom shouldn't have easy access to the Tyrant and vice versa. I think the Dom should be a reserve ship in the Gothic Sector fleet list too. There was only 1 in the Gothic war and it was a reserve vessel from another sector. Given the rules against reserving in a reserve ship this also retricts Dominators from appearing in other lists.

[afterimagedan]

If the Tyrant can take NCs, all that it is doing it making some IN lists, which have other restrictions, to take the NC Tyrant for 10pts less (which is called the Dominator). I am convinced. Sure, you can take the Sig range upgrade for 0pts but you reduce your FP to 10. In the end, you have a different ship than the Dominator anyways.

I don't buy the Lunar/Dominator argument because the Lunar doesn't have the range upgrade. That's my only concern. However, the Tyrant range upgrade, in the new stats, has the penalty of -2FP for the 45cm range. So, it does add up and I think it's good.

[Talos]

@ Sigoroth Fair enough on all points, but you are limiting your scope of vision for the game. The dominator is rare in the gothic sector because they are mostly constructed in the ultima segmentum at Kar Duniash, and are thus were a rare sight during the Gothic war. Since the games inception we have drifted away from the Gothic war/sector and included many others, like battlefleet armageddon and bakka. As the game has changed so must our perceptions to accommodate this, and so although you are correct in stating it should be rare in battlefleet Gothic (as in the fleet itself), it should not be nearly as uncommon in the myriads of different fleets that roam the galaxy.

[AndrewChristlieb]

A good question. I suppose that losing the Nova on the Tyrant wouldn't be the end of the world. I dont know about lowering the restrictions on Dominators tho. As they stand now all they do is promote Nova spam. The Nova really should have new rules to support its fluff. Of course we could go back to V 1.0 where the varients were restricted to those named lol :/. Nova cannons (and therefore Dominator) should be much rarer than they currently are, in any sector.

[horizon]

What Sig creates is in fact a Dominator for 200pts with the NC option.
And makes the Dominator a 190NC option, with the Tyrant the torpedo variant.
Thus why a NC on the Tyrant?

I kinda like the 45cm approach. Somethings need to be unique imo.

For me: 190pts, str10 per side, all range 45cm speed. Torps, with NC option +20.

Dominator: loses range upgrade/downgrade.

warning-

[afterimagedan]

What Sig creates is in fact a Dominator for 200pts with the NC option.
And makes the Dominator a 190NC option, with the Tyrant the torpedo variant.
Thus why a NC on the Tyrant?

Because it provides another option for fleets that cannot take a Dominator to take it put pay the extra points for it.