Finishing BFG:Revised

[Talos]

For chaos, the light cruisers seem uncharacteristic but balanced enough. Again though, the named battlebarges are a little odd. Terminus Est is really weak compared to regular battlebarge, and its odd that they don't all come equipped with CSM. As for changes, we should keep the additional upgrades associated with the specific marks, along with the 15pt marks of BFG:R. Makes them both relevant and reasonably priced. Before some were so expensive that making an all marked fleet was way too cost heavy; marking 4 cruisers with mark of nurgle was 140pts, not even counting options!

As for nids, lets try the hybrid approach; go with half modular/half-preset weapon systems which establish the individual ship while showing off the tactical variants...maybe the 1 point evolution could represent hive fleets (if we wanted to go with that option ) and the various upgrades for nodes could be potential upgrades to all capitals. Also agreed with 4+ save, although mechanically it was weird that it was the only non-necron ship to have it.

[horizon]

Quick note:
Chaos Light Cruisers are from Book of Nemesis (the Polish supplement).

Some people like their addition, I am against cl's for Chaos.
They weren't in the ' vote'/flawed ships thread (as that was about official ships anyway).

[afterimagedan]

Here is what I propose with the Chaos fleets....
1. Combine what is needed in the Traitor Fleets PDF with the Powers of Chaos PDF.
2. Make the stat and point changes voted on.

-Remove Relictor, Desecrator, Havoc, and light cruisers. 
-Which Blackstone Fortress stats should we include? Note, the BFGR one is 550 compared to 750.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well i agree with removing the unofficial ships, price corrections for the most part sound ok but the ABS@550 may require playtesting, 750 is pretty absurd but then it doesnt come into play much. Are the ABS special fire rules in there i dont have the pdf in front of me right now. The Chaos VBB defiantly have some issues as pointed out and CSM crew for Chaos seems a bit overpriced at 35 compared to the standard SM VBB rules (Chaos are only getting +1 to boarding over base instea of +2) do warmasters and lords get CSM standard (its poorly worded in the FAQ version). Im sure theres more once i get the chance to look over the doc.

[Talos]

The desecrator is just the conqueror world eaters battlebarge, minus khorne-ness and improved thrusters. Do I understand then that we are removing the chaos battlebarges, or just taking the basic BB profile and scrapping the rest? Agreed with AndrewChristlieb about CSM, less benefit should equal less cost, but I do not know how much...never used ABS so I cannot really comment, only to say that it seems really good; 8 uber lances at 90cm every turn...that cripples an IN or chaos cruiser every turn, and it takes a lot of punishment.

Quick thought on light cruisers; what if we kept one and added a limitation? Either by points or by ship minimums, or even reserve only...the battery covered artillery cruiser seems chaos-ish. Agreed about a hell of a lot less access either way though.

If anybody has played the ABS this is probably a good time to put in your two cents, although to be fair it is probably used so rarely that we could safely use the original profile and modify it later if required.

[afterimagedan]

I think ships that aren't in 2010, at least for the main fleets, should stay the same. Adding ships to the chaos and IN fleet seems to me like something we should do in an optional release later on. Relictor and Desecrator and light cruisers, for example. As much as I really like those ships and have used them before, they are not official or 2010 or even voted on, from what I can tell.

[Sigoroth]

The Tyrant has to be 12WB@30cmL+R. Otherwise it's useless.

As for the damn Defiant, my fondest wish would be to delete this ship. It's just a rubbish ship. However, assuming it stays in, I think that its prow armament should be identical to the other 2 ships. After all, it has an identical prow. I never got why they had it use lances whereas the other two ships had torps and WBs. I don't think it should have dorsal weaponry for reasons of precedent and fluff (I believe it's not supposed to have much at all in the way of guns). I understand why it could get dorsal weaponry over the other two variants (broadside space re-purposed) but I didn't like that argument for the torp variant Explorer either.

So to me a cheap and nasty CL that gives an extra couple of AC and torps as well as nominal direct firepower seems fine by me. Remember, this isn't a lone patrol vessel, but a line support carrier. Imagine it being used in concert with a Dictator, bolstering its bomber waves and torpedo salvo. For that it doesn't need lances or dorsal weaponry, but you would want it to be cheap.

[AndrewChristlieb]

^Yes. I could see a 180pt Tyrant 12wb L/R with a 10pt upgrade to 10@45 L/R to somewhat perserve its purpose (Eldar deterant...).

Defiant @ same cost as Endeavour with 2 wb & 2 torps sounds good.

I have tried the Defiant/Dictator combo with the 6+ prow and it works well, the 90 turn isnt nearly as useful on this as the Endeavour/Endurance tho.

[ThaneAquilon]

Hey! Sorry I'm so late to the party!

I'm at work and studying for a midterm, so my input for the time being will be limited to the fleets I play.

First! The hero. IN seem to disregard fluff every now and again, however with one 2 cruisers, I suppose having this one match is important. That being said, if we're set on making it weaker than the lunar (which is fine, also I don't have the pdfs with me, so I don't know what it's actual stats are) it should get at least a nominal point adjustment (down).

Second! The hellebore. I've used the varient with just fighters, and I probably won't pay 80 points for it, ever. I had it with seekers of the dark city, and even then it was marginally useful at best. I use hellebores, I like them, they're never dominatingly powerful, but they pay for themselves. I will probably not use them at 80 points, they just don't inflict enough damage to warrant it, in my opinion. So I think they should still be 75 points, OR get bombers, though that may require a further price hike...

Last but not least, Talos' suggestion of bombers for the protector. I like the thought, but I've never ploayed with the protector. I hate the thought of just having a fighter in the bay of an ordnance centric race though. Could include bombers with a cost/restricted varient.

Feel free to ignore all of these, I'm late, I know. I would also like to look at the torpedo gun boat thing from nemesis, but I've gathered we're saving that book for later?

[Talos]

Interesting point on the tyrant...if it had those stats I would actually build some for my IN fleet... No seriously.
What would we do for the price of the defiant? Like Sigoroth, I don't mind that it can't shoot worth shit if it's cheap enough. Torpedo gun boat thing from nemesis is the Tau Nao'Sak'Oreas missile cruiser. When and if we do add it, look up the thread on it.

@Thane Damn it man just look at it's stats for a moment; even with down gunning it it still ordnance! Lots of ordnance! Combined ordnance! That being said, I'm not sure why people want the batteries nuked.

[ThaneAquilon]

@Talos You're talking about the hero? I can't look at it's stats, I mentionied that. Because I can't see it's stats, I don't know if -1 wb and -1 lance makes it worse than the lunar or not (you lead me to believe it does not). I do know that generally people want it to be, and if that's the case, we need to adjust it's price.

[afterimagedan]

In the earlier posted BFG:R confirmed changes list earlier in the thread, does anyone know what the Idolator's "new fraal tech" is?

Also, the Dominator 45cm upgrade @ -10 pts. Can someone please explain this?

[afterimagedan]

Alright, the first document is finished for review:

++BFG:R Chaos Fleets++

Please check if all the stats are right, check fir further changes that need to be made, and that all the ships are in there that should be.

[Talos]

Can't seem to access document...

As for tyrant, what about if we make the batteries stock range 45cm at strength 12, and cost stock at 190?

[afterimagedan]

Fixed the link from google drive to dropbox.