Finishing BFG:Revised

[afterimagedan]

New BFG:R Documents:
++BFG:R Imperial Navy++
++BFG:R Chaos Fleets++
++BFG:R Space Marines++
++BFG:R Adeptus Mechanicus++
++BFG:R Tau Empire++
++BFG:R Necron Fleets++
++BFG:R Dark Eldar++
++BFG:R Ork Fleets++
Note: Most of these are still being worked on.

Also, official in BFG:R - ++Eldar MMS 1.9b++
Original post: I have been really interested in BFG:R since I found out about it and have absolutely loved playing games with the modified fleet lists and the revisions to the rules. Plaxor, who was the one heading the project, has put a post on the BFG:R blog page saying that he is basically marking the end of BFG:R as a project.  I am very interested in getting this project done and having it in a releasable format for everyone to have (for free of course) and enjoy.

I have posed this point to Plaxor and am waiting for a response.  If he is willing to send me the files, I will be more than happy to take up the work in his place but I will need some more volunteers to help as well.  I cannot say that I have the experience he does in making the PDFs or even fleet designing, not that I think it needs any more or many more point adjustments, but with a crew of people who can help out to get this thing released would help ensure it's release.

Will anyone answer the call?   
Confirmed Changes: (strike-through is implemented)
Chaos:
Despoiler: Use modified stats (Horizons)
    p/s launch bays str2 (4 total)
    Prow launch bays str 4
    dorsal lances str3@60cm LFR
    p/s weapons batteries str 10@60cm
Devestation: Lance range @ 45cm
Idolator: 'New Fraal tech'
Infidel: 2 turrets
Iconoclast: 25 points
Retaliator Side wbs @45cm, 6 launch bays. No free improved engines
Warmaster must be on the highest class of ship, not the most expensive.

IN:
Retribution: Side WBs fp18@45cm Cost 355
Apocalypse: Firing lances over 30cm causes blast marker to be placed on ships rear rather than critical. Dorsal Wbs to FP 9
Avenger: FP20@30cm cost 200
Tyrant: 180 base cost, 190 upgraded version
Endeavor/Endurance/Defiant: 6+ prow, maintains 90' turns
Dictactor: 210 points cost.
Dominator: 45cm upgrade @ -10 points
Oberon:Prow and Dorsal Weapons at 60cm, costs 355
Mars: Cost 260
Firestorms: Cost 35
Falchion 2 turrets
Exorcist: 6lb cost 260 (+5 AB upgrade)
<sub>Defiant: +2 prow torps
    (Horizon's Stats):
Cruiser 6
Shields 1
Speed 20
Turns 45
Armour 6+/5+
Turrets 2

Prow Torps 30cm S2 F
Prow WBs 30cm FP2 F/L/R
Port/SB Launch bays S1
Dorsal WBs FP2 F/L/R
(/Horizon's Stats)</sub>[/sub]

Astartes:
Strike cruiser: Now has assault carrier option, which swaps P/S weapons batteries for 1lb each @+15 points. As well as an option to swap prow lb with 3 torpedoes. 2 shields 1lb. Upgrade to replace prow LB with str. 3 Bombard F only for no points.
Battlebarge: Shields at 4, turrets at 4 Cost 440
RSV: Deleted
Gladius, cost 40
Nova cost 45

GCs: 25 points prow torp upgrade (6) no longer resists prow criticals if upgraded
Improved engines @ 5 points
20 point prow sensor array (see emperor)


Fleet list changes:

Bastions Fleet: No longer contains Endeavor Variants
Armagedon list: Loses RSV (as they no longer exist), however gains the Sword.


Confirmed Changes
Tau:
Hero: -2lances, -2FP (one each side), No longer restricted.
Merchant: 105pt cost, 6hits standard, upgrade to 8 hits for 20 points. +10 for lance variant

_{Corsairs:
Nightshade 50pts
Hemlock 50pts +1 f wb@30cm
Aconite 60pts
Hellebore: 80pts with profile change: 2wb, 1 pl, 1 fighter launch bay
Solaris: weapon range @45cm, no right shift.
Shadow: +2 torps, +2wb
Craftworld Eldar
Hero destroyed; Now just +25 point upgrade on characters
Flame of Asuryan-> Void Dragon CG loses vampires and aspect warriors. May upgrade vampires for +10 points. Permanent part of CWE list, restricted as 3:1 with cruisers.
Shadowhunter: old special rule. Speed bands +5cm, DE variant lance, +1wb, 45pts
Ghost Ships: Using MMS version with conversion for similarity to msm.
Wraithship: +5 point vampire upgrade.} replaced by MMS 1.9b


Dark Eldar:
Mimic engines for free
Torture can buy two impalers for 20 points, not 2 for 20 each
The Torture carrying the fleet commander can upgrade its' hits by 2 for +35 points, if done so then it can purchase an additional weapon system.
Addition of Incubi Bodyguard on the Archon's ship; these add an additional +1 to the ships boarding modifier. 2d6 on teleport attacks pick which counts. +15 points
Addition of Wych Cult. Doubles boarding value +15 points. sortof...

Ork Changes
Gorbags Revenge: Prow torpedoes increased to D6+4, Cost 305
Kroolboy: +2wbs to p/s guns. 255 cost
Slamblasta: Lances changed to str d3+2, Cost 285
Hammer: No stats change, just upgrades added (as listed)
May reduce the strength of P/S Guns to 2, and add soopa engines for no cost
May replace p/s heavy guns for 1 launch bay (total 2) for +10 points

Kill-Kroozer: Prow guns increased to D6+6, P/S guns increased to D6+2. Torps made into a 10 point upgrade. Cost reduced to 150, Turrets upgraded to 2
Upgrades:
May reduce P/S guns to str 2 and add soopa engines at no cost
May replace P/S heavy guns with D6 torpedoes for free.
Of course may replace prow heavy guns for d6+2 torpedoes for 10 points


Terror ship: Prow weapons at D6+4, sides at D6+1. turrets upgraded to 2, Base cost 175
Upgrades:
May reduce P/S guns to strength 2 and add soopa engines at no cost.
May upgrade prow heavy guns to Str D6+2 torpedoes for 10 points.


Onslaught: 30 points firepower D6+1
Upgrades:
may exchange 1 firepower for soopa engines at no cost
may upgrade turrets to two for 5 points

Savage: 30 points, has soopa engines
May upgrade its turrets to two for +5 points

Ravager:
May swap 1 gun for soopa engines at no cost
May upgrade its turrets to three for 5 points

Brute Ramship:
May exchange 1 firepower for soopa engines at no cost
May upgrade its turrets to two for 5 points

all the escorts in a squadron must have the same upgrades. All soopa engines or none, all turrets or none etc.

Torpedo Bombers/Minelayers: use old cost upgrades (based on averages rather than max)

Warlord upgrades:

Maniak gunners: 10 points, may re-roll lance strength as well (in the case of the Slamblasta)
Looted Torpedoes: 10 points
Mad Meks: 10 points
Extra power fields: 20 points


Fleet lists:
2 new characters added:
Big Mek: Makes the ship replace one shield with D3, comes with a re-roll 40 points
Freeboota Kapitan: Adds +1 ld to the ship, comes with a re-roll 40points
Both characters are in the warboss category, so you may not include more than 1 character per 500 points. Each may take 'warboss upgrades' which with the big mek will make the shields go to d3+1, or d3+2 on bb/bc.

Pirates: Now includes Kroolboy, and Roks, may include all three character options but must include 1 freeboota kapitan if over 750 points as it's leader. Other two are 0-1 each.

WAAGH: May include all three characters, however it must include a warboss at 750 points or greater. Both other characters are 0-1

Mechanicus Changes

Archmagos Veneratus @ 75 points

Ark Mechanicus @390 pts
Emperor @385
Retribution @375
Oberon @375
Lunar, Gothic, Tyrant @200
Dictator @230
Endeavor/Endurance @125 Comes with 30cm dorsal lance (without sacrificing torps)
Defiant @135 Comes with lance, without sacrificing torps

Vessels no longer come with a free, randomly rolled gift of the ommnisiah, every vessel must purchase one

Emergency Energy Reserves: 15 points
Advanced Engines: 15 points
Fleet Defense Turrets: 10 points
Gyro Stabilized Targeting Matrix: 10 points
Repulsor Shielding 15 points
Augmented Weapon Relays: 30
Auto Reloaders: 25 points (makes a vessel able to do an additional order if they pass RO) XXXX (replace with Extra Magazine for 15pts like current BFG:R documents)

Firestorm, Gladius @35 points
Nova @40points


Tyranids: ?

[AndrewChristlieb]

Well Im up for helping where needed. I do believe that the scale of the project should be stepped back to the original intent of correcting and compiling the fleet lists with any additional fixes saved for a later document.

[afterimagedan]

Awesome! I agree about the scale of the project; I think it was quite a bit too large. Where BFG:R was before a few of the newest files was about where it should should be in my mind: updated PDFs for the fleets and a rulebook with integrated changes (probably just a few). There were only a couple rules changes that I think BFG:R had that were noticeably different than FAQ2010 and that was mainly Launch Craft and some scattered throughout.  Mainly the changes came in the fleet lists, mainly the Eldars, the new Tyranids (which are awesome but need a couple fixes), Necrons, Orks. Honestly, every fleet list has changes, some more than others.

[horizon]

Not even the small rule changes for me.

Just pure and simple: ship stats/cost revision.
Even fleet lists wouldn't be needed in this document.

Eldar MMS has its own pdf and existed before BFG:R and will continue to exist for everyone who wants to use it.

[afterimagedan]

So, basically, FAQ2010 merged with the rulebook and the modified fleet lists? Eldar MMS should be included in this because it is oh such much better. Either way, the new ships from BFGR Dark Eldar, I think, should be brought in andthe new Tyranid list and Necrons.

[ThaneAquilon]

While I can't speak for him with 100% accuracy, I think you have me and Talos for playtesters, if you need. I can provide commentary on rules, but I'm not super knowledgeable, so I won't be the most helpful there. Talos will be more help on that side. But playing games, I can do.

[horizon]

So, basically, FAQ2010 merged with the rulebook and the modified fleet lists? Eldar MMS should be included in this because it is oh such much better. Either way, the new ships from BFGR Dark Eldar, I think, should be brought in andthe new Tyranid list and Necrons.

That is even to much for me for a starter.

A plain pdf with ship cost and stats.
End.

[Sigoroth]

Not even the small rule changes for me.

Just pure and simple: ship stats/cost revision.
Even fleet lists wouldn't be needed in this document.

Eldar MMS has its own pdf and existed before BFG:R and will continue to exist for everyone who wants to use it.

I agree. Just revised costs and/or stats for some of the more broken official ships and a separate section for new ships. Maybe separate sections, so that some of the more balanced ships can be in a "generally accepted by most people" section whereas some of the more ehm, out there, suggestions can be included but at the same time highlighted as such.

Fleet lists could also be included, but again only to correct costs and other issues, rather than introduce new fleets. For example, I have no idea why the Ad Mech fleet list says "The benefit a Mechanicus Archmagos brings with it cannot be combined with a refit selected because the ship rolled a 6 when determining base leadership, meaning in one-off games a ship will never have more than two refits from the Mechanicus Gifts table." I mean, really, wot?  Rolling a 6 for leadership doesn't give you a bonus refit, it only allows you to select which refit you want instead of rolling for it randomly. You can't get 3 or more refits even if you allow the two to be used together. Hell, you can't even get 3 Mechanicus refits in a campaign, since they use normal refits for that.

On the topic of the Mechanicus Archmagos you should be able to combine the benefit with rolling a 6 for leadership. Leadership is rolled before assigning your FC to a ship, so if you assign your FC (most likely Ld 8 ) to a ship that has rolled a 6 for leadership you're already losing 1 Ld. I don't see why you should lose the ability to chose your refit too. Likewise some other fleet lists could use a little work here and there.

Well anyway, back on the point, I agree that it should be just ship fixes for the main document, with perhaps some appendices for the rest. I dislike pointing to BFG:R as a suggestion for new players on ships like, say, the Dictator, only to find crap like the Hydra on the very same page. It lowers the validity of the document.

I also dislike that Plaxor went ahead and left the Tyrant as a useless piece of shit instead of fixing it. All for the sake of a single line of fluff that could easily have been altered. Fixing that damn ship was one of the main reasons for making this document in the first place.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I agree that there are still alot of fixes to the ships that need to be addressed before the document can be considered finished. I really disagree about making it only ship profiles and costs or even spiltting some ships up tho. The idea is to condense the lists into one document. I think each fleet list should start with the special rules for that fleet, including weapons/ leadership/ boarding etc. Then the revised ships and a selection of applicable fleetlists (maybe not all of them but i would say at least two for most fleets). This puts everything that a player needs to use a fleet in their hands all in one easy to understand document.

Playtesting should be conducted on all of the "new" designes if any are to be included, not that some are needed (Imps) others are greatly needed (DE).  Existing designes have already been played with for 10+years so there shouldnt be a problem there .

[Talos]

I a willing to playtest, but more importatly I am willing to play the sounding board game with you guys all day long. Please count me in to this project.

I agree with pretty much everyone here: original project was too ambitious, but why does everyone want to narrow the vision so much? How about ship lists/fleet lists (which are mandatory, btw, if we are adding even a single new ship to the game) in the document. The FIRST document. If we can get that done, let's try core rules/campaign/whatever else catches our fancy.

[horizon]

Why so narrow?

Because that is what the intention was in the first place.
Plus it is manageable.

If you have the ship stats/cost right you can start working on fleet lists.


@ Thane,
as you said you aren't ' knowledgable' isn't an issue to me. In fact, I think it is good if newer players add a perspective.

[ThaneAquilon]

If things are posted (or DOC'ed or however we'd be doing this) I will happily provide my input.

[afterimagedan]

Horizon, if you just want the ship stat and cost fixes, why don't you just make a word document and write them down and release it? That's really all if would be. I Personally like BFG:R more than 2010 because of what was done to fleets like Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and the smaller developments to fleets like AdMech (besides the wonkyness Sigoroth pointed out), Orks, and Necrons. Also, to be perfectly honest, I think the launch craft rules are better and more interesting in BFG:R. So if it just a list of 2010 compendium with a few stat and point changes, that would be a relatively short document that can be done pretty quickly. Maybe I don't understand what you mean, Horizon. I really like the currently uploaded BFG:R rulebook though there are some typos and tweaks that should be made.

Either way, this whole topic was meant to bring the discussion up, see where everyone was on the issue, and plan on going forward.

Things I would like to see in BFG:R2
-current BFG:R launch craft rules
-current BFG:R lists with whatever changes are needed.
-current BFG:R nova cannon rules with lock-on (though it needs some more playtesting)

Considering the entire BFG:R is not official and optional for that matter, I think it should just be a collection of articles (like it is now) that will supplement FAQ 2010 with optional rules that can be adopted by game groups if they want. I picture it working like MMS Eldar; group will play 2010 rules and MMS Eldar as a supplement. I am thinking it will look like that. Thoughts?

[Sigoroth]

I think the main reason for simplicity is acceptance. While there are a lot of gamers out there that are quite open and experimental the vast majority are quite conservative. The 2010 FAQ doesn't have the stamp of officialdom from GW so there will be some players that won't use it, but since it was authored by the HA there are a lot of people that do.

MMS Eldar is not official and so there are a lot of people that don't use it. However, it makes a great deal of sense and fixes a lot of problems and has been tested by a good section of the BFG community so some do use.

So acceptance of any document relies upon 2 things: authority and reason. Authority is by far the greater of these two. Any number of outrageous changes can be made with authority. But since we are not GW representatives we are already shot on that. Without a position of authority to argue from we should concentrate on conservative changes.

A document that purports to provide minor balance adjustments to ships that have been tested over 10 years and found lacking, authored by veteran BFG players, I believe is the very closest we can get to a generally accepted document. So this document should focus on that, plus maybe some glaring problems in ship lists. I don't mind adding further sections with new ships included but they should be clearly labelled as experimental, and perhaps categorised by their level of insanity.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Once the core revisions are made to ships and fleet lists i have no problem with making separate documents for things like nova cannon and attack craft, but i dont think they should be in a condensed version of the core (+2010) rules.

I would like to see some work done on correcting some issues with things like scenarios and a revised campaign pdf. Maybe even a document to help those looking to run a tournament.