September 27, 2024, 04:32:18 PM

Author Topic: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?  (Read 10353 times)

Offline horizon

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2012, 06:59:46 PM »
I know both Sigoroth and I plus others voted heavily against the bombardment strength on the variant. Not the variant shouldn't exist but it should be a lot less bc strength.

So we do not use that variant in our calculations. :)

The Necron threat is overestimated, plus the old tactica from GW/SG obscured a lot of people.

Offline Talos

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2012, 07:11:45 PM »
Old tactica from GW/SG? I do not understand...As for the BC, I agree. Not sure why the lance costs extra but a bazillion bombardment cannon costs zilch...

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2012, 10:09:39 PM »
There was a tactica in warp storm about fighting necrons, it advised to use lances first forcing the necron player to take the lances with their base armor save or brace making your guns hit easier. Math hammer says this is poo but if you cant roll 6's and get 4's all day long (like me) its great.

Bomb cannon is crap should have been a lance, maybe two. Dorsal lance is crap too. (imo)
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline horizon

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2012, 03:22:19 AM »
Actually we hate the lance option on the strike cruisers.
We didn't want it at all.
So we forced them into making the lance option expensive and useless.

"Vive le No Lances on Marine Dedicated Vessels"

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2012, 04:00:19 AM »
No, SMs shouldn't get lances at all. The bombardment cannon variant of the SC is very strong. I think too strong. The problem lies in the fact that it swaps a lot of essentially defensive weaponry for a good deal of purely offensive weaponry. As noted, the SC packs a whole hell of a lot into its little frame. Too much by rights, particularly from a model point of view. Looking at the prow of the ship, for example, the SC gets nearly as much firepower in its BC as the Dauntless has. On top of this it also gets 2 THs, in the same hard point. That prow must be huge to be able to fit all that in. Particularly as 2 THs are worth at least 3 normal AC in terms of bay size (a Styx that is converted to carry THs only has launch capacity instead of 6, and that's the best it ratio there is). So the SC model is supposed to be able to justify 3AC and 3BC in the prow. It doesn't.

So a few of us advocated dropping the prow launch bay to a strength 1 TH to make it more reasonable. Of course, SMs don't really need nerfing, and they do have survivability issues as it stands, so the idea was to compensate them for this loss by adding the extra shield for free. So basically, you get a 2 shield 1 TH SC for 145 pts. Using this prow launch bay as base we were able to "fix" the variants. You can swap the TH for either 3 torpedoes or 3BC@30cmF. So instead of getting roughly +3 lances on top of the ~2 it already had (2-4 extra dice hitting on 4+), it gets only +1.5 lances (1-2 extra dice) equivalent in firepower.

This works out reasonably well. Since 1 TH = 1.5 normal AC and 1 normal AC = 3WBe, therefore 1 TH = 4.5WBe. As 1 lance =3WBe & the 3BC ~1.5 lances then it also roughly equals 4.5WBe. One torpedo = 1.5WBe so the 3 torpedo option is also worth 4.5WBe. So all of these options are weighted equally. While Thunderhawks are more defensive in nature than either the Bombardment Cannon or torpedoes, these weapons are locked to the front arc, meaning they cannot focus on the same target as the broadside weaponry. So if you've only got one target you've basically got the choice of closing and firing 6 BC or presenting a more defensive aspect and firing 3 BC and 4 WB. The standard TH would, of course, go for the latter arrangement and it would have a TH to add to the fleet.

However, this change in the base number of THs on the SC effects the fleets carrying capacity. With an already reduced TH load and then a few ships foregoing them altogether in favour of BCs or torps you run the risk of being overwhelmed by enemy bombers. So a carrier SC variant was proposed, replacing the broadside WBs with a single TH bay each side (for a total of 3; prow, port and starboard) at a premium of +15 pts. So if you had 1 normal SC and 1 carrier SC you'd get 4 THs in total, the same as you do now from 2 normal SCs. Lots of variety and ability to customise your fleet, without having 8 Bombarment Cannon Strike Cruiser monstrosities.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2012, 05:28:09 AM »
Im not so much opposed to lances, the strike cruisers were dauntless lc before the sm models were released after all. Either way the bomb cannon is way too much and should be removed, the lance option is just stupid the 3 bomb cannon just flat outperforms the lance for 20 pts less/ 3 bomb have a min 1 die max 3 to hit compared to the 1 die max from the lance, both hit on 4+ but bomb hit ordy on 4+ compared to 6+ for the lance and bomb crits on 4+ compared to 6+ for the lance. The current strike cruiser varients are total crap the only good additions are the shield, turret, and torp salvo.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline horizon

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2012, 05:54:17 AM »
Im not so much opposed to lances, the strike cruisers were dauntless lc before the sm models were released after all.
But that were gap-fill rules. I place no authority in them. :)


And I agree with Sig on the SC.


Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2012, 06:10:07 AM »
Im not so much opposed to lances, the strike cruisers were dauntless lc before the sm models were released after all.
But that were gap-fill rules. I place no authority in them. :)


And I agree with Sig on the SC.

Ah but they still are valid rules ;). Speaking of which, how about rebuilding the Campaign rules lord knows thats about 12 years over due... The whole back of the rulebook is full of oversights and nonsense (why should my chaos appeal to the forces of chaos and get... assault boats? dont I already have those... lol. Not to mention nids and necrons and the refit table being opened to general use with fixed pricing and oh lord here I go....
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Talos

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2012, 03:14:01 PM »
Interesting points...if you are actually interested in campaign modifications perhaps I will open a thread about it in experimental rules.

As for the SC, I hate that it gets to be better because there's no SM cruiser. Pricing is a strange beast, best slain by sword and flame...

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2012, 04:22:39 PM »
Indeed, space marines were best left as additions to the imperial fleets and not as their own. Their focus should have been on good escorts not cheap cruisers as a "pirate fleet". Unfortunatly their escorts are almot to oberpriced to be useful, hunters are boarderline 40pts would be the upper limit for an escort imo, gladius gets a 5cm speed boost for 10points... and the nova is just all wrong. Drop the space marine boarding and hit and run rules (on a ship that might have a handful of actual space marines when used in a fleet battle they make no sense anyway) and drop their prices to Admech levels would be a start. Replace the lance on the nova with a couple of bomb cannons would probably go a long way towards appeasing the haters on that one too ;).
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline horizon

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2012, 06:50:46 PM »
Andrew,
I never considered them valid. ;)

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2012, 08:14:44 PM »
Andrew,
I never considered them valid. ;)

Thats odd, why not?
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2012, 09:13:47 PM »
Thats odd, why not?

Because they run directly contrary to fluff. In BFG the lance is purely an anti-ship weapon. SM ships aren't meant for naval battles, they're meant solely to deliver their cargo. Therefore SMs have no reason to have lances. This is due to the separation of forces following the Horus Heresy. SMs were broken into smaller chapters, the Imperial Guard were taken out of their control and the Imperial Navy was also removed from their purview. The idea was that these 3 different institutions could be used to police each other. If a single chapter rebels then the IN, IG and loyalist chapters can easily contain it. In practice this is much harder to accomplish, but if the Imperium can't keep anti-ship weaponry out of SM hands then there's really nothing stopping the SMs from building line cruisers and battleships to their hearts content, essentially giving them a navy to rival the IN.

Offline Talos

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2012, 09:54:25 PM »
Of course, the fluff also specifies that the BC is the shortest range weapon mounted on imperial vessels, so it seems strange that BC in BFG are not short range weapons. Fluffwise. AS has been pointed out in other threads, mind, exceptions exist to every rule such as the fist of russ being a mars battlecruiser with dorsal lances, and the fortress monasteries having lances and even nova cannons in the novels and manuals.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: How useful is my ship, and why is it so?
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2012, 11:47:45 PM »
Thats odd, why not?

Because they run directly contrary to fluff. In BFG the lance is purely an anti-ship weapon. SM ships aren't meant for naval battles, they're meant solely to deliver their cargo. Therefore SMs have no reason to have lances. This is due to the separation of forces following the Horus Heresy. SMs were broken into smaller chapters, the Imperial Guard were taken out of their control and the Imperial Navy was also removed from their purview. The idea was that these 3 different institutions could be used to police each other. If a single chapter rebels then the IN, IG and loyalist chapters can easily contain it. In practice this is much harder to accomplish, but if the Imperium can't keep anti-ship weaponry out of SM hands then there's really nothing stopping the SMs from building line cruisers and battleships to their hearts content, essentially giving them a navy to rival the IN.

Actually the fluff almost exclusivly uses lances as the perfered method of precision strikes in support of orbital landings, you would think SM would have them comming out of their ears in that case. I dont really care either way on the lance issue tho I belive the Bomb cannon to be superior in pretty much every case as stated and this should be the only option for their ships, even if the SM fleet had access to the lance Dauntless (which they dont) its still inferior to the Strike Cruiser.

Bask to the original question tho why do you feel the campaign rules are invalid? I would still say that even if the campaign rules were redone and there was still an option for an IN fleet to receive Strkie Cruisers via an appeal that the Dauntless would make an acceptable alternative for those that do not have the model. After all why should someone be required to buy a model that they would only be able to use if they got one from a random appeal in a campaign? On top of that it would be added for one game to an IN fleet anyway so what exactly is the issue here? It seems that its more about people complaining than anything else.  If its still such an unbearable situation for an Imperial fleet to receive a Lance Dauntless from a "space marine" then limit it to the Torpedo version.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.