Escorts-Do's and dont's of squadron composition

[Talos]

So a FW forge world list uses protectors with the wardens for finishing/flanking on the line and custodian with castellans in the rear for long range fire support? That seems rather good, actually... How does one use the really heavy escorts like castellans and such? I would never know where to employ such an expensive escort...

[Seahawk]

Are you not the same Seahawk who won adepticon recently? With a list featuring BC spam and no escorts? But I jest; gladius are not much different from swords, yes? Merely a bit faster and with SM rules if I recall. When do you run these large escort squadrons? How do they compare to SC at their role?

One and the same! To be fair, those three games were the first games I ever went without escorts...suffice to say I enjoy the results, but my fleet was pretty limited.

All previous Adepticons and games I use 6 Gladius and 3 Swords, in squadrons of 6 and 3, respectively. Why? Firepower. I love the guns. Firepower is boss against Eldar, and in sufficient quantities it gives others a nasty rash. 24 is a good quantity. I almost never disengage, simply because they are strong and durable (as escorts go, anyway) and pour on the hurt, even when down to just two. When reduced to just 1 (never happened) I'll likely disengage or fly it away to save the points, but until then they will do what I want them to and blast away.

My playstyle isn't prancy-dancy point denial, that's lame; I get up close and shotgun/bludgeon my way to victory, and so far it's worked nicely. That's mainly why the Space Marine fleet appeals to me, other than of course I have a massive Ultramarines army too. 

[AndrewChristlieb]

So a FW forge world list uses protectors with the wardens for finishing/flanking on the line and custodian with castellans in the rear for long range fire support? That seems rather good, actually... How does one use the really heavy escorts like castellans and such? I would never know where to employ such an expensive escort...

Exactly as you stated, in the rear providing long range fire support. Same goes for the Idolator although its still pretty over priced. The only other really expensive escort off the top of my head that isnt necron or eldar is the SM Nova which runs well persenting their broadside and flanking, the Admech is better imo tho due to the lower cost.

[ThaneAquilon]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay, been having problems with my PC.

So, first. Yes, I meant MSM shennanigans.

Second, lists with mixed squadorns. I THINK Afterimagedan has a batrep versus IN with mixed squadrons, but I'm not 100% on that.

Yeah, they are xenos, but (especially for squadron size) basic escort facts are the same. They are still specialised (aside from the hellebore) they are sitll 1 shield 1 hit ships. so while they certainly are different, the aspects I'm asking about are still pretty similar.

Hmm, That's interesting. Do you think they are as, or more effective in that composition than if they were mixed? I.E. Aconite paired with hemlocks, that kind of thing.

Just out of curiosity, why 2 hemlock and three aconite instead of 3 hemlock 2 aconite. isn't that more damaging?

I understand cruiser shuffling, but what is the purpose of escort shufling? aside from keeping the better escorts safe in large mixed squadrons, they all have exactly the same resilience, and die to a single hit, so you'll never have wounded ones to shuffle.

Alright, seperating nightshades makes sense. Any thoughts on the role of CL amd Cruisers?

Talos' sumation of Tau tactics are pretty much my thoughts exactly on the rest, and sounds cool, like something I may want to try soon.

thanks folks!

[horizon]

If afterimagdan mixes it doesn't mean everyone mixes.

Escort shuffling; to fill out the max amount of availble points. That's why I want 3 Aconites + 2 Hemlocks.

[ThaneAquilon]

Afterimagedan isn't the only one I've seen, just the most easily referenced, the rest coming from combing google for batreps.

Ah, that makes sense. However, with your example, is it really worth maximizing those ten points?

[Seahawk]

For me, I'd rather have same escorts and be down 5-10 points than to mix and be at par. It's just easier for play, plus it's a handicap and I give away fewer points

[AndrewChristlieb]

For me, I'd rather have same escorts and be down 5-10 points than to mix and be at par. It's just easier for play, plus it's a handicap and I give away fewer points

I agree its usually not worth it if your just throwing in one ship over another because of 5 points. The exception for me would be in say a convoy scenario where your limited in the size of the squad, but even then your best to stick to the same (unless you really want some firestorms for example, you can take 3 in a squad or 2 and 2 swords, the additional escort would probably be worth it in this case but thats alot of ifs).

[horizon]

Now wonder:
for FAQ2010 and BFG:R we discussed about lowering/raising costs for ships.
It was a victory to see some ships be lowered with measely 10-15pts.

Now, again, are those 10-15pts important or not.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Its pretty dependant on the player as to what they think is "worth" something. Most players wouldnt fill a 5pt gap by replacing a Sword with a Firestorm because it wouldnt work as well, it would still manage to do some good but it weakens the rest of the squadrons ability as far as facing, special orders etc. Now when your talking about taking a ship like the Overlord and lowering its cost to make it playable ya the 10 were "worth" it but when you think about it all that really did was make people sit up and notice those ships. The real winners were people who used ships like the Styx which was pretty good at 290, great at 275, and is stellar now at 260. These players got an entire escort over the games life so far, thats hugh. The only other thing I can think of off the bat that comes close is the Retribution/Emperor swap which wasnt even really a swap just an error correction.

[horizon]

No, the Retribution & Emperor were as intended not a mistake in the sense of them wanting things otherwise. They underestimated the Emperor and people's love for AC spam.

The Armageddon point drop is also pretty important.

[AndrewChristlieb]

No, the Retribution & Emperor were as intended not a mistake in the sense of them wanting things otherwise. They underestimated the Emperor and people's love for AC spam.

The Armageddon point drop is also pretty important.

The only reason they had to FAQ it was because the Fleet List had the point costs reversed, if you look at the ships entrys the Ret has always been 345 and the Emperor 365 even in the old v1.0 books.
pg 107, 108, and 115 BBB

The Armageddon price drop was needed, but its still insignificant compared to the 30pt drop on the Styx. As I said the Styx got the largest drop Im aware of (even if it was a bit at a time).

[Sigoroth]

The only reason they had to FAQ it was because the Fleet List had the point costs reversed, if you look at the ships entrys the Ret has always been 345 and the Emperor 365 even in the old v1.0 books.
pg 107, 108, and 115 BBB

Those are online pdfs, not the original profiles as printed when BFG was first published. The original cost of the Retribution was 365 pts and the Emperor was 345 pts. These prices were swapped later in a FAQ and the online version of the rules reflected this change.

The Armageddon price drop was needed, but its still insignificant compared to the 30pt drop on the Styx. As I said the Styx got the largest drop Im aware of (even if it was a bit at a time).

The Styx was probably the most overpriced ship in the game. A direct comparison of 2 Styx (580 pts) vs 3 Devastations (570 pts) highlighted just how craptastic the Styx was. A slight advantage in direct fire to the Styx when over 30cm range, but huge advantages in survivability, firepower under 30cm and offside firepower for the Devs. While being cheaper and a base-line cruiser. The Styx is actually worth about 250 pts, but it's playable at 260. Just like the Mars is playable at 270 but is only really worth 260.

[Talos]

To pursue this line, if the Jovian had a Nova Cannon and was dropped to 255pts, would it be playable? Again, small point difference (and more firepower than a firestorm frigate ) might make it almost playable, at least as heavy AC support vessel. And why is the oberon so expensive if it can't keep up with equal point value of anything? A point drop, at least down to its original level would actually encourage its use.

[horizon]

I always fielded the Styx so I find 260 awesome.

The actual fix would be to have the Devestation see prow and broadside swapped.

eg 30cm prow lances, 60cm weapon batteries port/starboard.