Costing For Imperial Battlecruiser

[ThaneAquilon]

Hey. SO my two cents on the hero/explorer.

I think the explorer is good, no doubt about it, but has significant weaknesses. slower than IN, batleship maneuverability. 4+ in he rear, no real weapons aside from bays (str what, 6 batteries? Not a real gun) 1 shield...These make it balanced, as any cruiser firing at it will almost always inflict damage, and it can't really brace, as it can't escape the fight, and is a free 230 VP without bays.

The Hero does not match it's fluff, that's fair. However stats wise, I think (regardless of what you think it's weapon load-out should be) it should be aggressively costed, as without it, old school Tau are too disadvantaged to really win. without a decent-good warship, the fragility of the battleships and terribleness of the merchant is just too much. IN cruise forward on AAF, shotgun, next turn broadsides, DONE. with the hero, there is something that they have to engage, and respect in combat, whereas as I mentioned with the other ships they're not even really worth bracing against all that much (obviously specific situations arise, but you get the drift). it's just too lopsided as a fleet.

[horizon]

You clearly missed the memo of that Tau Explorer/Hero fleet winning Adepticon twice in a row.

[ThaneAquilon]

No no! I'm saying if the hero was much shittier, or didn't exist, the list could not have won, as all the there fleets could have just cruised up and shit the shit out of them. They need a good warship just to contend. At least 1.

And yeah, I didn't notice that;p

[AndrewChristlieb]

Im sorry but now i have the image of blue hooved monkeys flinging poo out air locks at an enemy cruiser.

No no! I'm saying if the hero was much shittier, or didn't exist, the list could not have won, as all the there fleets could have just cruised up and shit the shit out of them. They need a good warship just to contend. At least 1.

And yeah, I didn't notice that;p

[Talos]

Entirely hypothetical (keep your shit in your ships, aquilon) , how would you balance the Hero? I agree with both sides: the Tau probably need access to a single solid ship of the line for that fleet to work. However, if the explorer is borderline too powerful and the hero is way better than a lunar in every respect, that does seem...questionable. Out of curiosity, how would you guys change the hero? Higher cost? Weaker ordnance/guns?

[ThaneAquilon]

Hey! My blue space monkeys are sophisticated! The wear top hats and monocles! Maybe tiny suits, too! They at the very least load their poo into the railcannons first.

Right, sorry bout that, knee jerk right there.

I don't think, on paper anyway, that the explorer is overpowered. Good at its job, but so fragile that it's balanced. I'm biased for the hero, so I wont comment for pricing/stat changes, but it would still need to, mechanically speaking, compete with, or beat IN cruisers to keep the Tau fleet viable. Especially given it's restriction.

[horizon]

Wrong, it should be weaker then the Lunar. And there should be no restriction. The Restriction is an after thought because of the Hero stats.

I'd drop the Ion Cannon to 2 (thus 1 per side).
Drop points to 175.

Make the Merchant have the hits already included for +5pts.

[ThaneAquilon]

Fluff-wise, yes it should be weaker. I mean mechanically it needs to be on par, as every other fleet will shoot tau to pieces without it, and many fleet can out ordnance tau, too. The quality is worse, but the quantity is huge.

[Sigoroth]

I don't think, on paper anyway, that the explorer is overpowered. Good at its job, but so fragile that it's balanced. I'm biased for the hero, so I wont comment for pricing/stat changes, but it would still need to, mechanically speaking, compete with, or beat IN cruisers to keep the Tau fleet viable. Especially given it's restriction.

No, not overpowered, but still almost game breaking. Consider this 1k fleet:

Kor'el + Aun'el - 75 pts
4 x Explorer - 920 pts

So 5 pts wasted to begin with, and 60 pts wasted in unused hooks, terribly slow, very fragile and sod all firepower (24WB@45cm altogether). But with 32 AC there's no fleet out there that can compete. The closest is Chaos with 20. The IN can manage 18 and Nids can only do 16. With 5 turrets each those explorers don't have to worry much about enemy bombers or torps and can really just send out wave upon wave of resilient bombers. Even a 20 AC Chaos fleet would have a tough time dealing with that. Can you imagine what it would do to a typical fleet which had only 8 AC? With such a fleet the idea would, of course, be to hide behind whatever celestial phenomena is at hand to mitigate the Explorer's obvious weaknesses. With a cluttered table it would be very hard to defeat such a fleet. The only real hard counter would be Necrons.

[ThaneAquilon]

Mm, I never consider spamming the same ship, I find it very unsporting. With the possible exception of slaughter span I suppose. So I always forget to factor it in.

Also I play at 750 for small games, so fewer explorers and re-rolls, but the logic still applies I suppose.

[horizon]

Correct. Even two Explorers bring on 16AC and cost only 460pts. Add a Hero for guns and even more AC (+2) and you are on 540pts.
That is still 210pts to spend....

[Talos]

Could be wrong horizon but the hero does cost more than 80pts, right?

@ Thane Aquilon The hero is actually almost as good as a lunar in broadside direct fire (2 less battery ), triples its firepower on the prow (same torpedoes +4 battery and 4 lances) and out ordnances it (2 launch bays). Defensively it is identical, but still has +1 turret!. And all it has is a worthless almost non-applicable limitation?

Even with Ion cannon halves this is still a good ship...Really good. Better than a lunar in most situations.

As for the explorer, I don't think its a really powerful ship. It is, however, insanely powerful given it cost 10pts more than a dictator (class cruiser ).

[ThaneAquilon]

Talos, I wasn't saying the hero is not powerful, or that it was, I was just saying, for the Tau to be competitive, they need a ship tat is at least as good as the lunar. Yes the hero is a really good ship, yes it will trounce a lunar, I wasn't, and won't disagree with anyone saying that. I also realise it makes no sense with the fluff, unless they (the Tau) tried to engage on broadside firefights. I was just pointing out a mechanical effect and explanation for the hero.

Yes, it is a better carrier. It is easier to destroy, and is less useful than a dictator in almost every other situation. They also fulfill different roles.

[horizon]

Could be wrong horizon but the hero does cost more than 80pts, right?

Woops,,,, still enough points left for 2 Orca's....

[Sigoroth]

Could be wrong horizon but the hero does cost more than 80pts, right?

Woops,,,, still enough points left for 2 Orca's....

Two Explorers (460) + 1 Hero (640) still leaves enough points left over for 4 Orcas (740), 2 Defenders (730) , or a 6 hit lance Merchant (750).