Tau Missile Boat

[ThaneAquilon]

Hey, so I'm interesting in running Tau Missile Boats (with the aproval of my opponents, of course) from the book of Nemesis, however my most usual opponent tells me they are considered quite undercosted, to the point of being broken. Can anyone tell me:

1. Why that is.
2. What points cost you would play it as, and why.

Given that I play Tau and Eldar, and my ship selection is somewhat limited compared to IN and Chaos, I don't have quite the nack for seeing apropriate costs on ships.

Bonus Question: How would YOU go about modeling this ship?

[horizon]

Hey,
it is very difficult to judge said ship.

It has 6 hits which puts it on Protector level.
But it has 1 shield less.
It has 3 missiles more, plus a benefit to fire two waves, which can be better then a single wave.
The Protector has a lot more gunnery.

However, where the Protector has a multifunctional role the missile boat has one dedicated order -> fire missiles.

Now, compared, I could field a gunnery Emissary for les points but with 3 torpedoes. To compare points one must add the prow deflector to the Emissary. This way you can have 7 Emissaries for 840points or 6 Missile boats.
That means 48 missiles from the missile boats spread over 24 markers. That is a lot. As 7 Emissaries lay down 7 markers for strength 21 in total.
The gunnery on the Emissary is more then double.
The missile boats wins on durability.

In a 1:1 both will be equal I think. The +1 Ld for the missile boat is what it makes it trickier as it benefits the benefit.
The biggest problem is the metagame in this.

A spam of 24 markers with strenght 4 for just 840points is a game breaker to me. No way an enemy can deal with that. Now, fielding 7 of them is gittish in the first place but it can be done. ieek.

Some ways to fix this:
remove the prow deflector
lower hits to 4
Remain point cost
maximum of 1 per 500 points.


/
For modelling:
Get 40k gun drones, some spare Tau 40k weapons, start kitbashing....

[ThaneAquilon]

Alright, well first off, I had considered that spamming them would be...too much, but I never intended to, fleets utilising all the same ship don't appeal to me. I really like the emissary, custodian, hero, explorer, warden and orca. So as you can see, some veriaty.

I think your changes are good, there are only two things I think I disagree with. I know my emissaries, explode when sneezed at, but given that they're diplomatic vessels first, military ships second, is fine. they also pack ridiculous punch at 110 (or 100 in BFG:R) points, so it's for balance. I feel like a dedicated missile boat should be slightly more resiliant, with an extra shield, or the option to buy extra hits or something, similar to the merchant. To continue the comparison, it does have more ordinance, but the squadronned turret rules in BFG:R make 4 waves much less useful. For example, while I know their turrets are better than average, I have 4 eldar escorts shoot down 2 seperate waves of 1fighter + 3Bombers form imperials, and Tau can have the same turrets Eldar have. Tack on to that that alone, a missile boat can't really hurt anything with gunerry. It can barelly hurt shield with it's guns.

The second thing is the restriction. While I agree that a restriction would be wise, i think 1/500pts is too much, it'd be almost as rare as a Custodian! I would think something more similar to the Hero restriction. in BFG:R it would be part of the FW fleet, so you couldn't use 1 protector to get a hero and a missile boat.

Those are my thoughts. I'd love to hear what you think about 'em, and if you have more suggestions. (Or if anyone has suggestions, thoughts or comments, you're invited too)

[horizon]

Ah, keep the 6 hits then, you have to model them bigger then though.

1 per 500
You won't spam it, others could. Therefor I think a limit for such an unique vessel ain't bad.
It is still 3 per 1500pts. Which seems fine.

[ThaneAquilon]

hmm, well I DO have 36 gun drones I'm not using...

Oh, I still think it should be limited, it's just the fom of limiting. I think with hero limiting, you can take 5, with 5 emissaries, but you could demand protectors to limit to about 4, maybe 3. or factor in the custodian...

[Talos]

Well, if you want my two cents...
1) The FW tau are all underhulled, so 4 points seems reasonable. OTOH, they also have prow deflectors, so maybe this should to.

2) The batteries are not very powerful, but this is a support vessel. 4 FP 45cm range is sufficient to help friendly squadrons in firefights, especially chillin' near the back with custodians to negate range penalties.

3) It seems odd, the high speed with low turning on tau FW. Perhaps lowered by 5cm but 90 degree turns? Or just speed lowered? Being a ranged support vessel, high speed hurts it anyway.

4) Point restriction seems reasonable: the entire texts goes into massive detail about how they are experimental and costly to maintain, rare and on their first trial runs, it seems like 1 per portion of 750 seems like the best compromise (note this allows 2 of them in 750pts).

All in all, I think it should have 4 hull, 20 cm speed, point restriction and cost 5 points less.

Feel free to ask for a refund

[ThaneAquilon]

Hmm. Wel I wasn't suggesting to change the battery, I was just comparing with a diplomatic vessel.

What is OTOH?

4 HP is fine for a LC, but if it was develloped as a warship, I think it would make sense to be able to buy extra hits.

I think they should have 90 degree turns, as every onther ship except the battleship has that, and would allow it to synergize with it's fleet.

Your restrictions are even harsher that Horizon's! Experimental, yes, but the whole fleet was just a short while ago. Hell, there's an experimental Protector who's only stipulation in it can't outnumber non-experimental Protectors. The fluff for the custodian says it's rare because it's expensive to make. I don't think these should have the same limits as a Battleship. this is the only thing I flat out disagree with.

I'm thinking keep cost, 4 HP, 20cm Speed, 90 turns, 2 purchaseable hits. 5+ armour, and like two or three turrets, in keeping with Tau's general high turret count, plus the natural increase to carriers' turrets.

Thoughts?

[Talos]

OTOH=on the other hand
Merchant Vasya config with hull upgrade would move 10 cm slower, worse turns, no ordnance whats so ever, and have no prow deflector, no bonus to reload, 1 less turret no to mention the missile destroyer can fire torpedoes as dorsal mount (thus far more powerful on non-forward arc, big benefit too tau especially with their torpedoes). Trade off is half hits, double battery, 10 pts cheaper. So in summary:

Pros of missile detroyer:
+1 Turret
Massive Ordance/point value (highest in fleet)
Better Firing Arcs
10cm more movement
potentially 90 degree turns
Prow deflector

Cons
half the hits
Half the battery

Those cons in now way balance out those bonuses, especially given its positioning (long range with prow facing makes its hits less relevant). As for the fleet accessibly, I recan't my statement and replace it with 1 per 500 points portion. It seems more than 140 with no retrictions, but lets hear some more from the rest of the BFG on the subject.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Hum so its a prototype of the protector? Why not put in the they can only be taken as a replacement for a Vior'la. This limits them to one/ each Protector. Other than that drop the dorsal torps and make it a straight eight prow. From this playtest to determine value, Im not quite sure this is worth a strike cruiser but it should definatly be more than a Dauntless.

[Talos]

Its not technically a proto-protector, but interesting about the strike cruiser; lets compare them

Missile Boat vs. Strike cruiser

Pros
+1 Turret
Variable Firing Arc
Much More Ordnance
Considerably Longer Effective Range
+1 Ld on reload ordnance

Cons
Less Armor
Worse Turning
Considerably better batteries, includes small bombardment cannon
Less options

They seem about even, when considered in their own fleet. The strike cruiser is designed for swift attacks at close range, with lots of protection and defensive ordnance; perfect fit for marine tactics. The missile destroyer is an ordnance beast that sits back and pounds enemies in its front arc; typical tau tactics. Granted, even when considered in fleet, marines are still a better race, thus the five point difference. But our suggestions include adding better turns and lowering its speed (advantage to tau ordnance fleets) and option of adding hull, so 140 seems actually pretty good, all things considered. With fleet quantity restrictions, of course. Although to be fair there is no light cruiser in faq 2010 that can stand up to a strike cruiser in general quality, especially with an added shield.

[horizon]

Overlooked that. 20cm should be.
Unless the Emissary & Protector get 25cm speed first.
90* fits in current line.
(Mind Book of Nemesis is older then Compendium 2010)

Ignore the fluff the missile boat is a Protector prototype. It makes no sense at all. I could imagine the Tau developing a drone controlled missile platform.


ps
I dislike the way the Hero is restricted. The Hero should be redesigned in the first place (weaker!).

[ThaneAquilon]

So from what I see, most people agree that, at the very least, it should move 20 and turn 90. I don't really know the SM strike cruiser, amd can't really comment on it, but I do know that it's quite good, but that it's 165 pts (with a shield upgrade).

@ Talos: It is not listed as a light criser, but as a full cruiser, which would make the 6 hits reasonable, and the prow deflector. purchaseable hits would show a halfway point between the hero and the protector, but if you buy the hits, it's turn go to 45 instead of ninety (assuming my first line is taken into consideration). But of course, as a full cruiser, it is a little undercosted, but also amazingly undergunned. Als I don't know where you got comparing it to the merchant from, I was using the emissary, but the one con you forgot to list between the merchant and the Missile boat is that the missile boat is 45 point more. that's enough for a defender, or almost 2 orcas or a messenger, or even a castellan.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Hum i dont really see the missle boat being equal at all. The strike cruiser (145 btw without shield upgrade) has better manuvering, better armor, better direct fire weapons, better ordinance, better leadership, and better special rules. The missle boat is closer in scope and price to a Defiant imo, the ordinance is still a wash and the tau has better range, turrets, speed, and a boost to reload however the defiants weapons have a better arc and chance to hit (turning and armor can flipflop on the defiant also allowing more flexability). Now the missle boat should be worth maybe 10 points more than a defiant, but a defiant should only be worth about 110 points compared to the other voss ships so i would say the missle boat should come in around 120. This should really have an armament boost to bring it closer to protector levels and away from the emissary in terms of price. A boost to the weapons (and price) would also help limit them.

[Talos]

@ThaneAquilon I couldn't find the profile for the original merchant, so I used BFG:R one isntead. Does the regular one not have the ability to purchase hits? As for its light cruiser status, again thinking of it as non-FW (due to the fact that it came out before) . Although this thread appears to be flavoring with FW salt & spice...

@ AndrewChristlieb Strength 2 thunderhawks is laughably weaker than 8 strength tau torpedoes in most situations (killing escorts or ordnance is one where thawks win). The space marine rules don't really benefit the SC nearly as much as tau rules benefit the missile cruiser; SC really only gets the leadership benefit and hit and run bonus, as most people don't use its boarding torpedoes or board with it. Whereas the tau ship benefits immensely from tau torpedo rules and due to its design does not really suffer any drawbacks (penalty to boarding). While you are 100% correct about the other points, it significantly out ranges the strike cruiser as well.

Don't forget the concessions we have made so far when comparing them; we have already agreed on speed decrease and turn increase, so strike them off the comparison list. Since ships pay a premium usually for unique ability, it does not seem unreasonable for it to cost a bit more for that status (very heavy tau torpedo load). As for the restrictions they apply for the same two reasons they usually do, I think: one is the scarcity of the ship, which is rarer than any other ship on the tau list, the other is breaking the mold (it has a capability unique to the tau fleet in the form of side arc torpedoes, which is not only more powerful because of firing opportunities but also because no other tau ship can throw so much of its firing power into a side arc).

Upon reflection it could have 6 hull without issue, and its costing could be at 135 w/restriction...but upon analyzing it, it really should have hemlock rules (-1 boarding and no initiating boarding); the thing is described as having a minuscule crew, most of it being drones and AI! Second, according to the page it is 40% ammunition, which should really give it the catastrophic failure rule (3d6 when destroyed). Add both of those and 130 w/restriction 1 per 500 fraction is fine with me.

[ThaneAquilon]

@Talos Again, I wasn't comparing the merchant to the missile boat, though another plus for the merchant is grav hooks. And yeah, given that it was made a while after the hero, and it's general appearance, I assumed it was FW based. I don't really think the old list need the explorer and the missile boat, that become even more ordnance crazy. the 2010 merchant can buy hits.

It's boarding. It's not listed as the FW fleet or the GW fleet, so arguments could be made that it only boards at half strength. Both fleets are restricted from initiating boarding actions, I believe.

Just because the ship like to hang back, does not mean it doesn't suffer draw backs. First of all, it's missiles disappear every turn, so if it's too far back, they're gone. Second, Talos, you're playing IN so this comes into play less for you, but Eldar Chaos Necron Nids SM DE...pretty much every fleet had the ability to move quickly, weather through AAF or fast basic speed, they can close with this ship fairly easily, and beat the crap out of it. And that most people don't board with it does not remove the inherent advantage the SC has in hit and run and boarding. I would use H+R with it, hell I used them with single hellebors with pretty good effect.

The Tau fleet already has the ability to fire torps in arcs other than front, in the form of Demiurg ships. and two other races have that capability as well, with space hulks.

Catastrophic Failure would be fine if it were an IN ship (or chaos or whatever) but tau weapinry is described as being extremely stable and unlikly to overload. The best example is tau Plasma never has the Gets Hot! rule (in 40k) and their codex explains the reliability of their weaponry.

In summary, it already has the gimped out boarding, more than the hemlock, actually. I disagree with catastrophic overload. with it's inability to combine the salvoes with itself, I would suggest 135 or 140 with the modified turns. I don't agree with 1/500 still, but beyond saying 1/400 or 350 or something, I have no other alternative beyong the hero thing.