Mixed IN Fleet Tactics

[Talos]

Hey guys been lurking these forums for ages but decided to get more involved for once So on to my topic: I am a fairly new BFG player and I primarily play IN, who I know are not considered very good but I love the fluff. My question is what viable fleet configurations are there other than shotgun/shear and NC standoff strategy? Splitting up my fleet into more than two groups always ends in disaster, and my two most common opponents (Tau and Eldar) are quite frustrating to play against. Unfortunately due to budget constraints they have rather small fleets and thus we mostly play small (750pt games) which really hurt my fleet options and tactics.

Any help from you grizzled veterans and masterful commanders would be greatly appreciated, either innovative fleet compositions (without stacking, of course) or unconventional strategies.

[horizon]

Hi and welcome,

first: Imperial Navy is not bad, quite okay actually. They just have so many options you can get lost. haha.

Although at 750points the IN is harder to play then at 1500pts. You could always play scenarios (eg raiders: 750pts Eldar vs 1500pts Imperial).

For a 750pts force the problem is the expense on the carrier.

1 Dictator
3 Dauntless
3 Swords
3 Cobra's

[Talos]

Thank you for your kind response, admiral I do seem to have a real hard time countering ordinance at this game level, and those damn sidewinding tau torpedoes don't help the situation. The tau list is Forgeworld and includes a Custodian...which accounts for more than half my damage sustained! I am having a real hard time cracking it open before it decimates my fleet, and he's never missed a reload ordnance check even once in four games

Sounds like a stupid question, but since the cobras need to touch to make effective salvoes does that not make them horribly vulnerable to gunnery? The custodian actually packs a decent amount at mid range.

[horizon]

We play with the v1.0 original blastmarker rules. Thus one blastmarker can ever only touch one vessel, even when massed. Plus markers still count as that arc only for gunnery effects and not allround.
This daft fiddling with allround or placing blastmarkers like you want is... stupid.

anywhoo.

Are you using the new FAQ2010/compendium rules for Tau or the older ones?

A Custodian will close, make use of that.

[Talos]

Unfortunately he keeps his custodian as far back as possible, making its guns less useful but the ordnance more so. As for the ruling, It was my belief that ships in base contact with each other...wait, so the only reason ships lose shield in contact is due to blast markers? So base touching a couple of cobras does not harm them? Hmmm... Okay, what kind of strategy would such a fleet use? I've only ever utilised large escort squadrons, I'm not sure how to effectively position or manoeuver them.

We are (trying) to use 2010 to begin with, maybe try out BFGR stuff in a couple of months when we got the swing of things. Also, do people typically use MSM or MMS 1.9 for Eldar? MSM takes me for an unpleasant ride

[horizon]

Hey,

on the subject of MMS vs MSM I am biased (as in being author of Eldar mms1.9b, BFG:R took on this set almost 1:1).

If you play vs MSM Eldar:
with celestial phenomena they'll toast you, without: you should be able to win easier.

Against msm Eldar: sent out bombers as single markers, never ever as a wave.
Blastmarkers hurt Eldar as well. So a saved lance might still be a death Eldar escort next turn.

Keep it together. Swords are ideal Eldar hunters being fast/zippy lots of batteries. Doing CTNH or AAF vs Eldar can be a good idea as one battery dice still has a 50% chance of destroying an Eldar escort or hitting a capital ship.

vs the Tau:
his Custodian at the back means his bombers need to travel more. Take a podshot on a large wave with lances or batteries. A single '6' is bye bye wave.
What is the rest of his fleet like? It is not about destroying the Custodian it is about making it go BFI so it can't reload. Then start hitting the rest. The Emissary is a soft target with 4 hits. Protectors are dangerous, but 6 hits is less then 8.

[AndrewChristlieb]

You could always go full out anti ac against the Tau too. Bakka list 2x endurance 2x endeavour (1 each in 2 squads and all with the additional turret) and an Admech Dictator with the fleet defense turret for 5pts as per bakka list and range upgrade. It might be a slogging fight against Eldar using this fleet but with the 90 degree turns on the light cruisers and a bit of ranged weaponery from the dictator you should be able to do alright.

[Talos]

He is running emissaries, to which are obvious targets for punishment. Thank your for responding too, Andrew. I am trying to avoid stacking or as much as possible (not to imply that your list is), as there is also a chaos fleet in the mix.

The fleet composition that got within an inch of winning (down to bad luck) was Bakka; 2 x Endeavour, Armageddon BC w/Nova and +1 Turret, 6 x Swords and basic admiral. I have had, admittedly terrible luck; on our second game I had a Mars and an Armageddon; First turn I direct hit with two Nova on the custodian....snake eyes. Warp Explosion later from the mars, max distance, reached out and inflicted a total of 14 hits on my ships! In a 750 pts game! Discouraging, to say the least. I'm assuming the strategy is to smash the living s*** out of his escorts and light cruisers and then either disengage or focus on the custodian.

Also, funny fact: I'm From Winnipeg, Manitoba (Canada) and although I know when you guys say BFI it's brace for impact, around here BFI is the local waste management company. So making a ship go BFI has a much more visceral image to me: compacted, crushed and tossed

[horizon]

Tailoring is something I rather not do. I always build my list and play with it. Allround is they key. Only once I have changed a vessel afterwards (AdMech Defiant into AdMech Endeavour).

You don't need an admiral under 750pts by the way. Chaos does, Imperial not.

Losing like that is a ****. But it happens.

[fracas]

Armageddon list
2 dictators
1 Armageddon with nova cannon

[AndrewChristlieb]

Theres always the tried and true Mars Dominator Gothic Swords route. You should really just focus on making a fleet thats fun for you and fits with your idea of how the fleet should opperate (novas vs torps, light cruisers vs escorts, weapons vs lances vs ordinance, etc). Basically what do you want in your fleet? Of course none of this answers the original question about tactics .

On the fleet you listed your light cruisers backed up by swords can take a proactive approach to ordinance by seeking it out. Practice surrounding the waves with your swords so that they will be in base contact with one of the cruisers when it moves upand touches the wave. Use the nova to good effect by targeting his light cruisers and escorts, this has the added benifit of forcing him to close in order to get within your range. Use smaller torp salvos to take out larger enemy ones, your light cruisers should be good for this. once your within 60cm you have a really good shot of hitting his battleship with your nova so I would probably focus fire on it and hit it with that nova last, just make sure your ships are not too close! Im sure theres more that could be added for both the Tau and the other races.

[Talos]

Thank you once again for all the pertinent advice, both of you! I know every single freakin' newbie on the boards asks the same damn questions everytime, but you guys are awesome, and definitely help with the community growth !

On to another point: with faq 2010 rules, running small fleets like that double dictator / nova armageddon when is it worth squadroning? Or bracing, with such ordnance dependent vessels? And how you best use that fleet in general? Or more specifically, versus that tau list? His list is 2 x Emissaries (Non-grav hook version), 3 x Warden and Custodian with Ld 9 and extra reroll. Not sure about costing of tau vessels, but he claims the fleet is under 750pts, but I let him field the custodian anyway because i'm so sporting .

What's not so awesome is combined torp/bomber waves. Because of the resilience, the bomber strip CAP relatively unharmed and thus the massive torp salvoes always strike home. Any better way to deploy ordnance or escorts to protect cruisers?

Also, about that armageddon list...why that specific list? Is it the only one that allows that ship combo? And should I include an admiral? By my count, it only adds up to 695pts (705 if I throw in PRams for the hell of it).

[horizon]

Heya,
that Tau list :
Ld9 Kor'0 80pts
aun'el reroll 25pts

Custodian 330pts
3 Warden 90pts
2 Emissary 220pts
total: 745pts

Officially he can only have a Custodian per full 750pts... but ah well 5pts short ain't an issue to me.

'kay his Emissaries have front gunnery as strong as the IN Lunar broadside. But it has 5+ prow and 4 hits. They need to close so they are easy targets. Take them out. Easy shut down, but many guns drowned.
The wardens should be dealt with your torpedoes if you have the chance.

Now the Custodian is a beast. But here is essence. His fleet has:
6 attack craft markers max in game.
1 missile marker from Custodian
2 missile marker from the Emissaries

Your fighter priority is trying to intercept the Custodian missile wave, the emissaries wave are less issue.
Your gunnery should shoot at the Manta wave(s).

[Talos]

How much priority should I give to shooting those bomber waves? Is it worth firing (to use my sample list) 2 of my swords? Half? All of them? And on the question of torpedos, which I have never really used much yet, non-tau torps seem easy to avoid for mobile fleets outside of 30cm...how do you guys use them in these scenarios? And how do you make the custodian close?

[ThaneAquilon]

Hey Folks!

So I'm the Tau/Eldar player in question.

I have a wealth of questions as well, but for Talos' thread I will simply provide a little bit of context from my side of the board. First thing to note, we played another game yesterday, which I came down to a couple failed ld checks on his side. He also fielded an Emperor for the first time, as he just finished it up (It's very nice and intimidating) so as to pit a battleship against mine, and to mitigate my bombers.

As Horizon said, my fleet:

Custodian w/Kor'o and Aun'el (2 RR)
3x Wardens
2x Emissaries (generally squadronned)

@Horizon I'm SO curious as to your assurance that I would move my Custodian up. until late in the game when the rest of my fleet falters and the 12 WB and 2 Lance is really required, I see no real advantage to endangering what is essentially the deciding factor of my fleet.

My general strategy is to semi-screen my Custodian with Wardens and Emissaries, while working the lighter ships into optimal positioning for a 1-2 turn brawl, then ususally a dropout, as they can't take much punishment. I can usually do enought damage to the majority of his fleet that my Battleship can wade in and mop up with relative impunity (obviously still being careful, and not an idiot).

I will start a new thread for the rest of my questions, but if you have any more questions about context or my particular strategies, feel free to ask!

Oh and last thing, until yesterday where I have to bomb pretty defensibly, using more than half my bays on CAP, I had never deployed fighters, using the emissariel torps to clear them.