Strongest - Weakest fleet list

[horizon]

Hmm, given the fleet picture I am tempted to say that the single Castellan model was not a single Defender but a Messenger. Would fit the bill.
He would even be 50pts under 1500pts.

Quite unfunny to use the tiny Emissary model (barely 4 hits) as a stand in for the Hero (bulky 8 hits!).

lolz

[Sigoroth]

I think that if I were to take an ECF contingent to a tournament I think I'd change it up a little, just to make it a little less boring. I'd take:

Kor'el
2 Explorer
2 Hero
1 Merchant (Dal'yth)
5 Orca
1 Stronghold

Total - 1490 pts

Unfortunately the hit upgrade on the Merchant costs 15 pts so I'd be stuck with a 4 hit Merchant. Still, it's better than 2 Defenders.   

Not quite as strong as the 3/3/8 fleet, but it gives an interesting centrepiece to the fleet at least.

[Sigoroth]

So, bringing back to the over power/broken/weak/nerfed list, what should I add? Where does it stack up?

Necrons should not be number 2. They're more a middle of the road fleet. Particularly when using VPs.

[Seahawk]

Interesting. All I keep hearing about them is how OP they are...I guess that's not really the case?

[Sigoroth]

Interesting. All I keep hearing about them is how OP they are...I guess that's not really the case?

Far too unreliable to be considered OP. I remember one game where I was well and truly winning when I faced 3 brace decisions in the one turn. One Scythe was on 7 hits and was facing just under 3 hits (average) incoming. I chose not to brace, took 3 hits and failed all saves (3, 3, 4). Another was on 5 hits, taking 1 possible hit, I braced, rolled a 1. I think the other was on 6 hits, taking possibly 3 hits, brace, no hits caused. So all 3 brace choices were the right choices to take but all 3 ended up wrong. If I'd have braced with the 7 hit vessel I'd have taken no damage and not been crippled. If I'd not braced with the 6 hit Scythe I'd have had more firepower next turn. If I'd not braced with the 5 hit Scythe I'd also have had more firepower next turn (since crippling was inevitable). As it happened I lost too much firepower and eventually the pot shots of my opponent wore me down.

So, right choices, bad results. This happens a fair bit with Necrons. It's a crap shoot. You may as well just roll a dice at the start of the battle to see who wins.

[horizon]

So basically there is something wrong with the Necron rules.

And I also do not think Necrons are overpowered.

[Greg]

From my experience, Eldar, (Tyranids depending on rules) and Necrons are OP when playing against general fleet lists (not optimized for max guns/lances/anti escort) and emphasizing their strong points. Even against optimized fleet lists some variants still have a say. Consider mass hemlocks, mass scythes or mass tyranid escorts.

[Seahawk]

I suppose the Tyranids could be if they're not limited to a certain amount of upgrades per ship. I almost faced a monster of a Hive Ship in a 1000 pt game once before I asked not to have that happen.

In my Adepticon thread, I never got an answer (that I could tell) to this question:

Would one say that I was using the 2010 SM fleet list to it's fullest capacity? Most people said my fleet was brutal to face, and the other players scoffed when they heard Table 1 was SM and Eldar; at which point someone said "Hey, they are legitimate fleets!" I'm not sure whether the generally held view is that SM are still suck or if they are top of the line now, or even Eldar/Necron level or something.

I was hoping to get some insight here. Why would people scoff? Why do others feel the need to defend their legitimacy? Are they broken strong or silly weak, or somewhere in the middle? Why is the list brutal?

[Sigoroth]

I was hoping to get some insight here. Why would people scoff? Why do others feel the need to defend their legitimacy? Are they broken strong or silly weak, or somewhere in the middle? Why is the list brutal?

There could be any number of reasons why someone would scoff upon hearing of that match up. As I have said before, Eldar are doubly broken. They are both too strong and too weak at the same time. In the hands of an experienced admiral on a full size table and using a reasonable system of terrain generation they are practically unbeatable. In inexperienced hands, on an undersized table and with sparse terrain they're practically useless. On top of this the scenario also plays a greater than usual role. It could end up being extremely favourable for the Eldar (blockade run, for example) or extremely unfavourable for the Eldar such as being the attacker in a planetary assault (having to run straight into the enemy guns with little to no cover isn't ideal).

So many people see the Eldar as being very gimmicky and broken. Likewise the SMs have traditionally been viewed as weak. They also perform quite differently depending upon scenario. They typically do well in planetary assaults and exterminatus scenarios and perform poorly in fleet engagements. On top of this they are typically the Eldar's bitches. The Eldar are one of the few fleets that can outmanoeuvre and outpace them and for whom their bombardment cannon provide no extra bonus and against whom their boarding rules are wasted (essentially meaning they're paying for useless abilities). So not a good match up, both fleets considered gimmicky and not a good setting, at least for the Eldar (who typically under perform in tournaments).

The degree of awareness of the changes to the SM may vary as may the degree of agreement with those changes. All of which could cause someone to scoff. For example, someone may still be of the belief that SMs are very weak and so they might scoff. Someone else might be aware of the changes but disagree with them and so they might scoff.

If I remember rightly your fleet was "brutal" because you maximised your number of BC armed SCs. To my mind these ships are overpowered. I myself think that the normal SC should only have 1 TH in the prow, not 2, and that this TH could be swapped for a str 2 BC@30cmF. This would give a total of 5 BC, not 8. [Give the 2nd shield as standard, no change in points costs, and add a carrier variant SC that replaces the broadside guns with a TH bay each side for +15 pts.]

[Seahawk]

Ahh, that makes a fair amount of sense. Thanks for the explanations!

As for my fleet, yea I did max the BC. I could have made it even meaner and included another 3-4 Strike Cruisers instead of the barge though, so.... While I understand the idea that it's very strong, it's also very short ranged. It's a shotgun, protected by a riot shield. I feel there are a few weaknesses and ways around it to defeat it; luckily, that day none of my opponents made use of such tactics.