Strongest - Weakest fleet list

[AndrewChristlieb]

I'm surprised there's so little love for assault boats. Chaos DE and Space Marines can clean up with with fleets built around shutting the enemys fleets down.  A very cheesy Chaos fleet (1500) can drop 32 assault boats in a turn and have 12 60cm wb 14 60cm lances and 30 30cm wb on one broadside. Dark Eldar have torpedoes that cause automatic crits, assault boats that do not fail (+1 to hit and runs) and are only hit by turrets on a 6+, and every single ship including escorts can take an impaler which is just awesome (6 escort AAF in base contact impaler wave!!!) Sorry got excited there. Finally the Space Marine fleet which is built around crits every capitol ship has resilient assault boats that don't fail (+1 to hit and runs) and their primary weapons not only hit on 4+ against everything even attack craft but any hits score a crit on 4+ too! Once the enemy is softened up they are easily the best boarders outside nids (taking ail into account probably a bit better)

[Mycen]

Sure the Chaos ship will have more guns than the Tyranid one, but it can't use them the turn it boards, and if it's going AAF and CTNH to get in position to board it isn't going to have many opportunities to use them at full effect before that. But despite its lower cost, when the time comes to actually board, the Tyranid ship is better.


It can use its claws before boarding with good odds (a five damage point average) to damage a cruiser before the boarding action even starts

How?!

Four claw attacks in the movement phase means, on average, two points of damage and latching on, so another four attacks in the end phase, where two points of damage inflicts a third point of damage. Then resolve the boarding action. It's braceable damage, unlike the boarding itself, but those are still good numbers to bet on.

I like the flair, to some degree, but I would like to see some changes made. Agree to disagree!

Of course! After all, if it was decided to get rid of All is Lost, I would hardly be complaining, that's for sure. I'm just a rules conservative, things like what happened with the new rules for torpedoes and Tyranid refits make me leery of changing things...

I'm with Dan.  Tyranids should be really good at boarding, but the boarding rules are complete rubbish
...
  But boarding is a bad mechanic too.  Of course the fleet that specializes in boarding is going to be the worst in this version of BFG.

Haha! That I can certainly agree with too!

I'm surprised there's so little love for assault boats.

I never got that either. Considering the potential to do damage when using a +1 to H&R fleet, ABs are often better against large capital ships than bombers. Why I don't see people using them where they can has mystified me to no end.

[Phthisis]

I favor assault boats over bombers, to be sure.  But I think there are two things that keep ABs from being wildly popular.  First, they don't bring home the bacon.  Winning the game generally hinges on destroying ships and getting VPs.  ABs aren't good economy for killing ships.  Second, and probably more important, H&R attacks are really unpredictable.  You can, and I have several time, hit a ship with 8 ABs and not shut down the weapons that will be facing you in the enemy's turn, or just get one hit on them and see it repaired in your End Phase. 
We addressed this in our house rules by turning the +1 to H&R rule to being able to reroll the result if it doesn't do you any good.  That way you're more likely to be able to stack crits on the facing you need the most or do more damage, but it removes the 'Flaming Tomb' problem.

[horizon]

Mixing assault boats & bombers is the best. But not all races have assault boats available.
Vs 6+ armour assault boats are definatelly the better idea.

Phthisis, your list: Well DE won Adepticon in 2011, Space Marines in 2012 and Armada Tau in 2009 & 2010 (iirc).  Your numbers 6,7,8 heh.

Marines needed the 2010 boost.
DE can do very well in scenarios.
Tau have Explorers. Nuff said.


On Chaos:
it isn't launch bays. The Chaos strenght is that is a great allround fleet. Relative fast ships, Excellent ranged weaponry. Good amount of launch bays. Chaos has always been the perfect starter fleet due all of this. It is a forgiving fleet.

[Phthisis]

My assessment was based off of each fleets rules, strengths and weaknesses.  I don't think that what fleets win tournaments is the best way to evaluate which fleet is the best.  There are a lot of other factors involved. 

[Sigoroth]

It can use its claws before boarding with good odds (a five damage point average) to damage a cruiser before the boarding action even starts, and it is almost guaranteed at least a plus two modifier to the action, for blast markers and the enemy bracing against the claws attacks. Even compared to the best boarders of other races tyranid ships are great - they're more effective and more numerous. Other races don't have to worry about their opponents self-destructing because the opponents of other races don't have to constantly worry about all of their ships being overwhelmed in boarding actions.

Twin claws do not give 5 damage on average, even when ignoring BFI. Actual average damage is 3.85, before bracing and crits. After bracing and crits but before boarding is resolved (fire crits do not affect boarding that turn) the average damage is 2.08 hull hits.

Here is a rundown of the maths if you need it:

The chance of 0 damage = 0.5^4 = 1/16 = 6.25 %  ................... (all 4 attacks miss)

The chance of 1 damage = 0.5^4 x 4 = 25%   ........................... (1 attack hits, 3 miss)

The chance of 2 damage = 0.5^4 x 6 x 0.5^4 = 2.34%   ............ (2 attacks hit, 2 miss, subsequent 4 attacks miss)

The chance of 3 damage = (0.5^4 x 6 x 0.5^4 x 4) + (0.5^4 x 4 x 0.5^4) = 10.94%   ........... (2 attacks hit & 1 further hit + chance 3 attacks hit, 0 further hits)

The chance of 4 damage = (0.5^4)^2 + (0.5^4 x 4)^2 = 6.64%     .............  (chance 4 hit/4 miss + chance 3 hit/1 hit)

The chance of 5 damage = (0.5^4 x 0.5^4 x 4) + (0.5^4 x 6)^2 = 15.63%    ....................    (4/1 + 2/2(+1))

The chance of 6 damage = 2(0.5^4 x 4 x 0.5^4 x 6) = 18.75%   ................... (3/2(+1) + 2/3(+1))

The chance of 7 damage = (0.5^4 x 4)^2 + 2(0.5^4 x 0.5^4 x 6) = 10.94%    .................  (3/3(+1) + 4/2(+1) + 2/4(+1))

The chance of 8 damage = 2(0.5^4 x 0.5^4 x 4) = 3.13%      .......................   (4/3(+1) + 3/4(+1))

The chance of 9 damage = (0.5^4)^2 = 0.39%   ...........................  (4/4(+1))

Total damage = P(0) x 0 + P(1) x 1 + P(2) x 2 ..... + P(N)n = 3.85

So let's say you bring your cheap 90 pt Nid cruiser up against a 220 pt Khornate SM Slaughter (presumably the Slaughter spent the last turn on LO blowing away the Nid cruiser's sister ship). Let's assume both are undamaged and that the Chaos cruiser is on orders. Let's assume the Nid ship can get into base contact without using special orders. The Nid cruiser moves into base contact, drops a spore (+1 to boarding), attacks with massive claws, Chaos ship braces (+1 to boarding), claws score 2 hits past brace. Now resolve boarding action. Nids get 1D6+2 (BM in contact, on orders) with an option to re-roll the dice (average total 6.25), Chaos get 1D6+3 (+2 for CSM, +1 for higher BV; average total of 6.5). That's pretty close to a tie, slight advantage for the Chaos player.

Mind you, that firepower from the Slaughter would have, on average, destroyed a healthy unbraced Nid cruiser. Though if we consider that it braced we can expect it to come away merely crippled. In which case, could it add to the boarding action? Well being crippled its Massive Claws wouldn't work, so no extra damage but it could add another 6 BV to the 12 of the other cruiser, bringing the total up to 18, which is more than the Chaos vessels' 14 (6x2+2) this gives a +2 swing to the Nid player. However, since you'd be attacking with a braced and crippled vessel you'd give a +3 bonus to the Chaos player. It also doubles the chance of taking a critical. The only reason to throw it in there is to protect the first cruiser in case of losing (by assigning hits to the damaged ship) but since it increases the chance of losing, there's no point. Also, if the 2 cruisers were a squadron then bracing one would mean that the other would be braced too, putting it on orders and thus giving the Chaos player another +1 to the dice roll, further increasing the chance you'll lose the boarding action. So that 1 tooled up Slaughter against 2 claw/board Nid cruisers comes out ahead. It can destroy one and pull off a draw against the other in the boarding action, suffering only a total of 2 pts of damage. Or it can cripple one and pull of a slight win against the other in the boarding action, again suffering only 2 points of damage. For the Nids to be the winners they need to be able to do more damage in the one boarding phase or be left alone to continue clawing the ship over multiple turns (not terribly likely).

The Chaos ships advantages of hits, speed and sheer firepower see it being the better option as far as I'm concerned. That's even when wasting 55pts just to negate the Nid advantage in boarding. Under normal circumstances I'd forgo those upgrades and just sail in close for point blank range broadsides (well, roughly 10~12cm out). That way I'd be able to avoid base contact whether you used CTNH or BR. Fire will be a little less effective, but return damage will be nill. As soon as you're crippled you're harmless.

[Seahawk]

Horizon, I put up the list of Adepticon winners in my first post, as reference. It's not quite what you think it is

And Phthisis is right, tournaments aren't always a good indicator of "what is best" because of a variety of reasons. Hell, he (and this is what I'm really looking for here) provided the list of fleets he thinks has the most power to the least power. DE, Tau, and SM are middle to low on the pack, but they've all won tournaments. This is probalby more a case of people simply having not played against them often and getting surprised. Both of my non-ringer opponents were surprised at my SM guns and thunderhawks and what they do.

Finally, I don't care about the technicalities of the Tyranid fleet. If you boys could crunch down your discussion to the bare basics as to how strong/weak you think it is, that'd suffice .

As for assault boats...I absolutely love them. Of course, SM have the best assault boats in the game, being always pass, resilent, and fighters to boot.

Time to rejigger the original list to work in new opinions!

[horizon]

Hi, I am 100%  sure it is sg tau. I know from deadshane the Ork winner. sg tau with explorers hero and orca is a top of the bill fleet.
fw tau is okay. medium.

[Seahawk]

Well, the guy I played in '08 was Rob Sautbine (the winner) and he had FW Tau those years, not Armada Tau. The second year I got royally hosed on the scenario against him! I'll update the list, regardless. You still think it outshines Necrons even? I've heard mean things about them Necrons.

This was his fleet. Now, unless he was playing it as Armada Tau with FW models (UGH, annoying), then yea. Still, he has one more ship in there (Marlin, whatever it is) than you mention; if he's been saying it's Armada then it's over points and no wonder he won those years, but the roster I got from him lists them as FW Tau.




And his '07 fleet (exactly the same, I guess):




Here is him taking on Armada Tau in '09:

http://www.adepticon.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7685


I really insist that he must have been using FW Tau


Now if only I could figure out what Joe Freeland used last year we'd have a complete list...

[Sigoroth]

Agreed, SG Tau is the best fleet to get right properly beardy. 3 Explorers, 3 Heroes, 8 Orcas.

[horizon]

Hi Seahawk,
then he used FW models as SG stand in. 100% sure.

Here is the deadshane thread:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?196900-Imperial-Navy-How-to-win-in-this-atmosphere

Winning fleet 2 years running now...Tau w/3 BB's...24 fighter/bomber.

2x Mk23 Explorer, 1x Mk24 Explorer, 2x Hero, 9x Orca, 3x Defender. Korel + Aunel = 1485pts

It was the only option we derived to get the thing Deadshane described.

Furthermore No set of FW rules allowes 3 Battleships in 1500pts.

Weird though. With FW he cheated big time them if he used 3 Custodians.

Heh, get that player in here to clarify

[Seahawk]

Yea, no kidding. I'll see if I can find his old list, but I'm not gonna make any promises . Maybe the guy got the number of launchable AC wrong?

If he used the FW list (Fanatic 24), his list would be 1435 and thus:
1 Custodian
2 Explorers (counts as)
2 Emissaries
1 Defender (counts as)
9 Orcas (counts as)
Tau Kor'O (Ld9)
Aun'O (2 rr)

If he used the FW list from FW, his list would be flat out illegal because of only having Custodians available and being limited to 2.

If he used the GW list, his list would be 1475 and thus:
3 Explorers
2 Heroes
1 Defender
9 Orcas
Tau Kor'O (Ld9)
Aun'O (2 rr)

The problem is that there are simply way too many Tau lists out there. There's another from IA3 apparently that superseded the old FW rules, and add to that this set from the old SG forum that came out after that: Link.

ARG!

[horizon]

Hi Seahawk,

the list in fanatic 24 was released by the HA a day before Imperial Armour 10 was released. This set has been ordered by FW to be removed from the internet. The HA/SG did so. (weird it is back online...)

the list in fanatic 75 is indeed the FW list which was from IA10 + a fleet list. Considered official by most this one.

The last link is a fanmade work guided by Xisor & Shinnentai. Nothing official whatsover.
Same as this is fanmade Tau list as well (project distant darkness:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/archive/rules/gothic/ddarkness.html
(top link, others are scenario/story expansions. This list is an addition to the regular Tau list, not an expansion)

And now we have this Tau list from Compendium 2010:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bw_dULEfC3rbODAyY2YwMTgtMzAxNC00NWM5LWFhZWYtMGM4N2QzY2NiOWRi/edit

Which I consider the regular official Tau list for FW models that is.


---
Having 3 Custodians with 2 as Explorers is daftness....

[Seahawk]

I guess you'll just have to update your idea of his fleet. The only one it could have been is the GW one:

3 Explorers
2 Heroes
1 Defender
9 Orcas
Tau Kor'O (Ld9)
Aun'O (2 rr)

Despite not using the right models. Le sigh...

[lordgoober]

Yeah.  I'm 99% sure he was using the FW ships as stand ins for the GW ones.