Victory Points and Escorts

[ItIsDearFlinch]

I've recently picked up a couple of fleet for BFG and had a few trial games with FAQ2010, but I'm slightly confused as to how victory points work with regards to escort squadrons. Faq 2010 states:

"An escort squadron that successfully disengages only counts as being 10% destroyed against the full value of all the escorts in the squadron. It counts as 25% destroyed if the squadron was crippled before disengaging..."

And in the blue book:

"Each destroyed escort ship, planetary defence, installation etc, earns a player a number of victory points equal to the vessel’s or the  installation’s points value."

Although FAQ2010 specifies that escorts now yield points based on the state of the entire squadron when disengaging, I couldn't find either there, or on these forums, whether victory points for kills are now calculated on a per squadron basis, instead of per ship.

Does this mean that, for example, I lost 3 Iconoclasts from a squadron of 5
A) The opponent gains 90 points for the kills, and then if I disengaged a further 38 points (25% of the entire squadron)
B) The opponent gains 0 victory points for the first 2 kills, and then 38 points once the squadron is crippled (whether it disengages or not), with 150 victory points if the squadron is destroyed (Extrapolating from capital ship victory points)

I appreciate the help, and apologize if this has been covered.

[AndrewChristlieb]

That's a good question. I never even thought about it after the FAQ2010 came out. I know I play as per your second option there. The enemy gets 0 vp for the first 2 38 vp on the 3rd and 4th and 150 vp on the 5th or exactly as a capitol ship would be.

[horizon]

We still play that if the escort squadron is crippled and it disengages it is 25%vps. So disengaging a crippled escort squadron adds no additional vps.

A non-crippled escort squadron gives away 10%vps.

[Sigoroth]

B) The opponent gains 0 victory points for the first 2 kills, and then 38 points once the squadron is crippled (whether it disengages or not), with 150 victory points if the squadron is destroyed (Extrapolating from capital ship victory points)

This.

[ItIsDearFlinch]

I appreciate the rapid responses, everyone. Thank you for your help.

[Don Gusto]

B) The opponent gains 0 victory points for the first 2 kills, and then 38 points once the squadron is crippled (whether it disengages or not), with 150 victory points if the squadron is destroyed (Extrapolating from capital ship victory points)

I play it likewise but strictly going by the rules the bolded part is wrong.

BBB p.66:
"Each destroyed escort earns its value in victory points provided the entire escort squadron is destroyed"

As long as there is at least one escort left on the table its squadron is worth zero victory points (Both FAQ2007 and FAQ2010 only elaborate on disengaging escort squadrons).

Never made sense too me though we use B) as a house rule in our campaign.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I always just assumed that the faq was poorly worded, I guess its not worded at all . Clearly something that needs to be addressed in the next faq to remove the confusion.

[horizon]

FAQ2010:
Under Squadrons:

ESCORT SQUADRONS: An escort squadron that successfully disengages only counts as being 10% destroyed against the full value of all the escorts in the squadron. It counts as 25% destroyed if the squadron was crippled before disengaging, as in if at least half the escorts in the squadron were destroyed (rounding down) before the squadron disengaged. For example, if a squadron of five escorts disengages after two were destroyed, the enemy only gains 10% of its starting value, but will earn 25% of its starting value of three were destroyed before it disengaged.

So disengaging : 10% vps
So disengaging & crippled : 25% vps

Under Disengaging:

A ship that disengages successfully counts as 10% its point value for the enemy, or 25% if it is crippled before it disengages. This is NOT in addition to the 25% victory point value if it remains on the table at the end of the game but is crippled.

So : disengaging percentages are no additions to crippling percentages.


Quite clear to me.


However........ 
rulebook 1.5 :

As long as there is at least one escort left on the table its squadron is worth zero victory points.

lol, bonus for escorts.

iirc FAQ 1.5 had the 'correct' crippling escort vps rules.

[ItIsDearFlinch]

Horizon, I understand how the disengaging rules work, I was asking how regular victory points for killing escorts worked as neither:

"As long as there is at least one escort left on the table its squadron is worth zero victory points."

or

"Each destroyed escort earns its value in victory points provided the entire escort squadron is destroyed"

are included in my version of the blue book or the most recent faq/errata (2010). As such it appeared that killing escorts was yielding victory points on a per escort basis, but disengaging was yielding them on a per squadron basis.

[Sigoroth]

In simplest terms escort Vps used to be calculated on an individual basis. So destroying one immediately yielded its full VP value. Now escort VPs are calculated on a squadron basis. In essence, treat the entire squadron as a single capital ship with the the number of escorts being its hits. Any discrepancies between old versions of the rules and newer versions stems merely from a communication problem on the part of the HA.

Obviously this should be included in another FAQ due to the confusion it causes.

[Mallich]

FAQ2010:
Under Squadrons:

ESCORT SQUADRONS: An escort squadron that successfully disengages only counts as being 10% destroyed against the full value of all the escorts in the squadron. It counts as 25% destroyed if the squadron was crippled before disengaging, as in if at least half the escorts in the squadron were destroyed (rounding down) before the squadron disengaged. For example, if a squadron of five escorts disengages after two were destroyed, the enemy only gains 10% of its starting value, but will earn 25% of its starting value of three were destroyed before it disengaged.

So disengaging : 10% vps
So disengaging & crippled : 25% vps

...

iirc FAQ 1.5 had the 'correct' crippling escort vps rules.

The problem with the FAQ here is that the definition of "crippled" varies. It first says that "crippled" means 50% of the squadron was destroyed, rounding up, but the example it gives rounds down. I think in another thread people supported the latter (rounding up).

[AndrewChristlieb]

Indeed the 1.5 version only adds more confusion. Would this mean that in the example above that *not* disengaged the escort squadron would yield 0 VP for the first 4 escorts destroyed and then 150 for the 5th?

Someone with a low set of morals can field squads of 6, moving on running in circles in and out of formation while they toss the other 5 at the enemy with out fear of any loss. Even if it turns bad you could still disengage that last ship and only yield a handful of vps :/. This works regardless of wither you play as per a capitols ship or as per the V1.5 rules its just even better with the 1.5 :/.

*what I mean by this is you can actually move the ships so that one ends up 65-75cm from the rest of the formation and then has to run a circle of at least a couple of turns to return to within 15cm

[Don Gusto]

... as neither:

"As long as there is at least one escort left on the table its squadron is worth zero victory points."

or

"Each destroyed escort earns its value in victory points provided the entire escort squadron is destroyed"

are included in my version of the blue book or the most recent faq/errata (2010) ...

Only the bold part was meant as a quote. It is from the BBB, 3rd printing, which is available as free download from GW. It is also noted in the introduction of the FAQ2010 that "This document is intended for use with the most recent online versions..."

[AndrewChristlieb]

Yes its well documented as to the points awarded for a completely destroyed squadron, a crippled and disengaged squadron, and a not crippled and disengaged squadron.
I think the problem now is A: What does a crippled squadron yield for Victory points when its not disengaged (not clearly lined out) and B: What constitutes a "crippled squadron"  rounded up or rounded down?
Now clearly I believe they should yield vp based off of the same standard as capitol ships: Vp are awarded in the amount of 25% of the total value of the squadron upon 50% or more damage rounded up. It must be rounded up because rounded down obviously leaves them with more than half hit points still and it makes them way too easy to cripple (3 escorts only requiring 1 to cripple wouldn't be worth bringing).

[Sigoroth]

Yes, the FAQ is poorly worded. This issue is one of the laundry list of faults I found with the FAQ and detailed somewhere else on these boards soon after its release. However, it would be sophistry of the worst sort to try to take advantage of the confusion caused. To 'cripple' an escort squadron you need to destroy half the starting ships in the squadron, rounding up. This is obvious. To cripple anything in BFG you must do at least 50% damage. If it has taken less than that then it is not crippled. For example, a Nurgle cruiser requires 5 hits to cripple, not 4, even though it has 9, not 10, starting hits.

Similarly a crippled escort squadron that has not disengaged is worth 25% VPs. This is because there is no difference in VPs between a crippled ship if it is disengaged or not. Obviously the writers of the rules merely intended to convey that disengaging the escort squadron when crippled only yields 25% VPs, not 35% (25% for crippling, 10% for disengaging). The reason they'd want to be clear on that is because it is still not crystal clear in the minds of some gamers that disengaging a crippled ship is not worth anything more than it merely being crippled. Obviously that clarification should have been made regarding the VP rules in general, not just as a reminder as it pertains to escorts.