Tau Protection Fleet 2010 overview

[horizon]

From that pov:
Dauntless, Voss CL all 6 hits vessels and they have far less on them installed. Even the Strike Cruiser has less components. So the 6 hit Protector is probably the most advanced 6 hit vessel around. Or the 'weakest' 8 hit vessel.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Indeed even the eldar cruisers don't have so much packed on. Of course you could always say that there's already so much on there what can one more thing hurt .

[Zelnik]

It is not wise to compare eldar ships to others... they break all the rules of the game as it is!

Either way.  I feel that rules trump WYSWYG.  I agree the vessel should either be better or cheaper. I would not mind making it significantly cheaper, say, 180 points, putting it in line with a Lunar cruiser.

I would, however, remind you that it's description says it is the first vessel designed to engage and destroy enemy vessels. This means it is meant for killing cruisers, Not escorts. I still push for LC2, there is NOTHING wrong with this but personal opinion on either subjective scale issues, or subjective opinions on what people view the future of the Tau empire is. Really, we are complaining about one strength of fighters and bombers!

Again, I can see two manta's being held in that bay. Just as each launch bay on either side of the wings has enough to fill one full fighter wing.

[horizon]

I wish BFG was more wysiwyg all over the place. Look at the first Chaos battleship you'll encounter. Make it wysiwyg and it will be so much cooler.

Yes, it should engage enemy cruisers (and others while raiding). It has impressive gunnery. Good missiles. A fighter bay to remove cap to make sure the Manta harasses. And the Missiles have fun.

And I still see the Hero as a ship being employed by the Tau when the heavy engagements start.

We should make sure the Protector does not replace the Hero, better said make the Hero useless as a choice.

[Zelnik]

I do not think that it will be an issue, since the hero has a stronger torpedo salvo, ion cannon strength and more hits. I want the protector to be an alternative and viable for any player who wants a pure forgeworld fleet or does not want to spend 30 bucks on a pewter model. 


Also, the hero is being replaced by the protector as it is... its right there in its description.

[Tyberius]

I understand the (FW) Kor' Or' Vesh Tau fleet is an Exploration, and vanguard fleet.
That's why their ships are smaller and sleeker, maybe a little compressed. OVERPOWERED FOR THEIR SIZE; all of them!!

Leaving the main engagements to the Kor'Vattra (GW) battleFleet made out of slow and heavy PROPER WAR VESSELS

So if you want a battlefleet get the pewter one
And if you want the resin fleet, act accordingly with its role!

Where it says FW ships are replacing GW ships? in what official rulebook? there's no armada entry for FW ships, so resin ships are still an alternative fleet.  Anyone in this forum can create rules and feedbacks and say whatever he wants, therefore say they are the new breed of ships, replacing the old ones.
I shall difer, for me they are explorers.

Custodians are awesome grand cruisers (or eldar Battleships)
Protectors are badass light cruisers, 90º turns are ok, no extra points for that, it's ridiculous!!!
emissaries are just like auroras or solarises, to give them hooks instead of bays is a good idea.

[Zelnik]

Tyberius...

I will refrain from swearing, but the difference between battle, standard and light cruiser only applies to Imperial navy.

The power arc is far muddier when it comes to alien races, and using it to brand them is trying to make every race Imperial navy.

[horizon]

Also, the hero is being replaced by the protector as it is... its right there in its description.

Which description.

We can rewrite it. heh heh.

And since the Hero is still being sold, still has rules, people prefer GW over FW, the matter of fact is that their is no 'real' replacement within BFG.

[Sigoroth]

I do not think that it will be an issue, since the hero has a stronger torpedo salvo, ion cannon strength and more hits. I want the protector to be an alternative and viable for any player who wants a pure forgeworld fleet or does not want to spend 30 bucks on a pewter model. 

I agree that the goal should be to make a fleet that can stand alone. Or at least, that would be what the Tau were aiming for. However, the fact remains that the Tau empire does rely upon allies and auxiliaries. So it's not that big a deal that a 'pure' Kor'or'vesh fleet would be at a disadvantage compared to a mixed fleet. They do, after all, have the ability to take other ships. Also, in trying to balance the Protector against the Hero we're going to, of necessity, run into a problem, since the Hero is overpowered.

Also, the hero is being replaced by the protector as it is... its right there in its description.

Right, and that's what the Tau were aiming for. The success of their endeavour is somewhat in doubt though, and even if the Protector were to be the hands down winner compared to the Hero you'd still find that the Tau would depend upon the Hero for a good long while, simply due to numbers. I'd imagine the Heroes would be easier to repair and maintain too, since they have a modular design. But all this is beside the point. What I think Horizon meant about the Protector not replacing the Hero was from a game perspective. Both fleets are extant and both need to be viable. The very best way to achieve this is having a clear point of difference between the ships.

As it stands, the Protector is a manoeuvrable, hard hitting, light gunship. The Hero is a solid linchpin all-rounder. To give the Protector the same AC capability as the Hero blurs that distinction a bit.

I think we both agree that the Protector is not quite up to snuff at the moment. A pure Kor'or'vesh fleet really should be viable at least. However, given that it already has so much for such a small ship and that adding a launch bay reduces the points of difference between it and the Hero I think that a points reduction is the best fix. It isn't the only possible fix. I can understand why you'd want another point of AC, and that would be a fix. It is also a possible fix. That is to say, it's able to be justified (with some wrangling). I just don't find it either necessary nor the most justifiable fix. Thus, to me, it is unsatisfactory.

[Tyberius]

Tyberius...

I will refrain from swearing, but the difference between battle, standard and light cruiser only applies to Imperial navy.

The power arc is far muddier when it comes to alien races, and using it to brand them is trying to make every race Imperial navy.

Everything is measured, clasified and named upon imperial standards in the 40k universe... and every fleet/race has it's own ship displacement clasification...

.....and there's no need to swear.. we are adults, (I Guess)

You will indeed swear reading  this:
Tau are Copiers, that's what they do, they copy and adapt technologies to their own needs, always making them better, and more advanced. I must say, this is why they are so successful, and why they are always evolving..

Ok, lets say the Kor'Vattra fleet is made under imperial standards

Explorer= imperial Battleship
Hero= imperial cruiser or battlecruiser
merchant= a mix between a transport and a light cruiser (odd ship)

Then we must say the Kor'or'vesh fleet Is configured by Eldar standards. (just cause eldars did it first, or maybe a result of tau investigation on eldar ships)

Custodian= eldar battleship
protector= eldar cruiser
emissary= eldar light cruiser

Evidently we have another type of fleet, that surely can stand a fight by themselves, but my point was on this: It is a different fleet with different roles and features, so no ship in the kor'or'vesh fleet is a replacement for a kor'vattra ship.

[Zelnik]

Tiberius, I want you to know that I read your post twice just so I could get your whole point of view.

To put it simply, this is not 40k, you cannot judge anything by the standards of one fleet alone on the basis that every fleet fights in a different manner.  You cannot in any stretch of the mind compare an explorer with an imp battleship for the simple sake that it only costs 230 points... we can go into details if you like but it derails the conversation.

Sig.

Glad to see you understand my point of view, its ok to disagree!  Here is another argument though, the points of a ship also are a factor of how rare the ship is, and the resources needed to deploy it.  If we reduce the points, we will be increasing the number of ships on the table, and reducing the feel of how rare the ship is. In the original rules you were restricted by a 1 for 1 ratio on the ship, but got more bang for your buck because of it.   

[Tyberius]

Tiberius, I want you to know that I read your post twice just so I could get your whole point of view.

To put it simply, this is not 40k, you cannot judge anything by the standards of one fleet alone on the basis that every fleet fights in a different manner.  You cannot in any stretch of the mind compare an explorer with an imp battleship for the simple sake that it only costs 230 points... we can go into details if you like but it derails the conversation.

You read my post twice and still didn't get the point.

1.- This is indeed 40k universe, not star wars, not star trek, not starship troopers...no space balls.
2.- Every fleet fights in a different manner, yes even Chaos and Empire fights differently and they are measured by the same standards of displacement.
3.- I do compare an explorer to an imperial battleship, cause every fleet classifies their ships by displacement. (both are battleships)
Let's compare it to an emperor.
same hits, same speed, same ac capacity, considerably less weaponry, different armor config, different shield cap...they are very different yet the same role is given to them both. CARRIERS.
4.- My (real and important one) point was: You have to treat the protection fleet as a totally different fleet not a replacement for the kor'vattra.

Sorry if you cannot understand me, maybe my english is not so good. 

[AndrewChristlieb]

This isn't spaceballs? , and I always thought necrons went plaid .

[Zelnik]

I just had a bit of a brainstorm.

Why don't we reduce the cost of the protector to 180, like many agree with and institute some upgrade options to the fleet?

Things like experimental systems, xv15 boarding teams, or even optional grav hooks or tracking systems.

This would allow the tau player to patch 5 to 25 point holes frequently found in tau fleets and add some flavor to the fleet.

[afterimagedan]

I would enjoy seeing options for small upgrades in the Tau list. Good call Zelnik.