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Author Topic: BFG:R Book I The Core Rules: Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread  (Read 66680 times)

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2011, 03:20:18 PM »
 So a ld 6 deamon ship in contact with a blast marker (-1 ld) would have to test to NOT disengage?
 I think crippled would probably be better, especially if the rule were to state "anytime a deamon ship is crippled immediately make a leadership test to remain in play. If the test is passed continue applying any remaining damage/critical hits. If the test is failed the deamon ship vanishes (counts as disengaged) and any remaining damage/critical hits are forfeit."
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Offline Plaxor

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2011, 03:57:52 PM »
Sounds fair. However your wording provides too much benefit to the Chaos player.

See when a daemonship is threatened to be destroyed it would much rather disengage than stay in play, the Daemon player would likely prefer to disengage the vessel immediately rather than let it remain in play for his opponent to kill it outright.

Simply the vessel must remain in play for the full opposing player's turn, so that he has adequate opportunity to destroy it. Also the fact that the test is made during the movement phase hinders the Chaos player, in that he forfeits the vessel's damage output for that turn. Some may choose to disengage a crippled vessel, as it can gain HPs, but this removes the option.

So I will go with Crippled, as it has less... loopholes, and would require significantly less text to explain.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2011, 07:23:00 PM »
True I just really liked the fluffiness of the ship slipping away just as the enemy is about to drop the finishing blow. It would be exceedingly frustrating tho, probably for both players :P.
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Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2011, 09:42:00 PM »
Dictator at 210 seems palatable, but yes, I'm afraid that since the Dictator and the Mars were overpriced, and the Exorcist was much more so the Emperor reigned!

Well, it still is a fair tradeoff I think since one still needs to spend at least 330 points just to take the Emperor.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2011, 11:46:36 PM »
Yes the emperor begs to have a fleet built around it. That said the emperors lr guns and launch makes it the perfect solution to the biggest disadvantages the IN face, hence why you always see them. The oberon and vanquisher can give it a run for its money in this rule set and that's good, but they all still overshadow the gunship bbs by a long shot. I do like the feel of the ret with the 45cm batteries tho, as with its speed and armor it actually make sense to put it at the front of the fleet and aaf threw anything dumb enough to let it. That said this is a stupid tactic, but lacking 60cm batteries is pretty much what I expect to see from it, if I ever see one that is.
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Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2011, 03:24:58 AM »
Few things I noticed and some suggestions.

Defiant has prow torps and lance is this intentional and would it not be under priced adding the torps? Maybe the weps that are standard on the endeavour and the lances if you want 2 prow weapon types.

Also was it intentional for the voss pattern ships to get the 6+ prow AND 90* turns? On that note is there a chance of seeing an option to increase the armor on the other light cruisers or even better (to keep the voss originality) a +1 to shields on dauntless types.

How about seeing an option to upgrade the hydra's 6 30cm with 45cm batteries for +15 pts ala tyrant but with a higher cost (as your "upgrading" more weps)

What happened to the viper... This is an awesome little ship and much loved.

Option to increase turrets for armageddon? Only reason for mentioning this is its currently the only cb that does not either already have or have the option to get 3 turrets.

Avenger cg is listed as 12 hits

Dominator should be listed as -nova +6 torps for 180 instead of +4 torps imo as this fits better with the other in cruisers in terms of weapon loadout/ cost.

On the last note can we see the cost to upgrade armageddon/lunar/tyrant to nova drop to 10?

And on space marine ships how about getting the nova frigate an additional turret, its the only frigate with 1 turret and its the most expensive ::)

I'd like a puppy too :D
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2011, 04:14:24 AM »
Stupid tactic? A blunt prow on approach by the IN is quite fitting for the IN in a steamroller approach.
I think 220 for the Dictator wasn't that for overpriced, the Excorcist ain't bad either.

I would drop the option of torps for the Dominator, but you know that already.

Acheron should have 3 turrets, yes (previous page).

Voss light cruisers with 90* and 6+ prow is a MUST, a VETO, a THING that SHOULD BE!
Otherwise they will always remain a poor choice.

The Defiant was crapzels anyway. This incarnation makes it a choice.


Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2011, 04:43:51 AM »
Steamroller yes, aaf no. I see a lot of people showing love to the "aaf imp fleet", but I can't really think of a time I've ever used aaf as a tactic. Everytime I've played against someone playing this way I've been able to use it to my advantage. Aaf orders more often than not causes your fleet to become scattered and disorganized due to the random nature of the move. This works well for say orks where you should see what 30ish escorts?, but for a cruiser heavy fleet (most) with minimal squadrons (2 ships typically) its poor form. When your talking about in and aaf your looking at the fleet either being split into two sections (torp armed line and nova/carriers) which allows them to be destroyed peacemeal. Or the fleet has torp armed only, meaning at best your looking at 2? Dictators in a 1500, and they're going to be running TOWA0RDS the guns. How lovely. So yes aaf is a stupid tactic that is easily overcome with some rather simple placement of ships and ordnance. The retribution in this example would likely be the primary target and altho it has the ability to absorb a lot of damage will be lucky to reach the enemy crippled and not destroyed. Now while I do believe that it would take most of a fleet to kill/cripple it while its closing that's an awfully expensive ship to throw away as what? a meat shield for a handful of cruisers to get off early shotguns?
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2011, 05:43:30 AM »
Quote
Defiant has prow torps and lance is this intentional and would it not be under priced adding the torps? Maybe the weps that are standard on the endeavour and the lances if you want 2 prow weapon types.

It is completely intentional, it was the only option that could be agreed upon for the vessel whilst leaving it in the game. Simply giving it 2 launch bays per side (as it should have by the size of the bays), was regarded as too easy access for the IN. Some suggestions were made for this, such as requiring players to have one Endeavor or Endurance with it, however that is an echo of the old restriction, which was removed with FAQ 2010. Players generally feel that it isn't in the Imperial fleet's character to have low launch bay to vessel cost ratios (they sit at about the highest of any fleet, at 52.5 for their base cruiser, chaos is at 47.5 and Orks at 45.)

So we took some creative initiative, and presumed that the vessel has increased capacity due to the limited launch bays, and is able to fit in the more powerful weapons. This allows it to be an option, like Horizon said, It isn't the best thing in the world, but you won't feel bad for taking it.


Quote
Also was it intentional for the voss pattern ships to get the 6+ prow AND 90* turns? On that note is there a chance of seeing an option to increase the armor on the other light cruisers or even better (to keep the voss originality) a +1 to shields on dauntless types.

Yes. This was an absolute necessity to make them more competitive with mainline cruisers, allowing for the 'CL' Armageddon fleet to be viable. Voss' Cls function more like standard IN cruisers, so they need a competitive edge vs the cruisers. The Dauntless has speed and a powerful concentrated firepower, something quite valuable to the IN.

Quote
How about seeing an option to upgrade the hydra's 6 30cm with 45cm batteries for +15 pts ala tyrant but with a higher cost (as your "upgrading" more weps)

No. See my post above about perfect weapons. The Hydra is meant to be a 'throwaway ship', it is the cheapest IN cruiser available, and is treated as such in its fluff. It makes no reference of being able to take more powerful weapons as per the Tyrant.

The Hydra's long ranged weapons are simply a 'quirk' that may help you, but are much more likely not to do anything. The vessel is not intended to fill the role of a long range support vessel, and simply functions as a cheap baseline cruiser. In the Warden's fleet, one would likely look towards 'downgraded' dominators, with their increased range for such a vessel. Then again one of the themes of the Warden's fleet is its limited supplies and sub-par fighting vessels.

Quote
What happened to the viper... This is an awesome little ship and much loved.

This is comparable love that people had for the Sedito Opprimere. The Viper is strange in a number of ways, just a Cobra (best non-eldar escort!) but better. The vessel didn't really provide anything unique to the fleet, and wasn't worth the pages.

That said I'm not completely opposed to it being included, particularly if the Bakka fleet makes it back in. Probably would be modelled out of 2 cobras, extending the chassis.

Quote
Option to increase turrets for armageddon? Only reason for mentioning this is its currently the only cb that does not either already have or have the option to get 3 turrets.

Not really necessary. The Overlord/Mars upgrades were just hangovers from BFG 1.0, when apparently they thought such an upgrade was valuable. The two new BCs have the turrets, primarily for balance. Again..... not every option forever.


Quote
Avenger cg is listed as 12 hits

Apparently the Avenger is now the Greatest vessel ever.
J/K, whoops, I'm disappointed I missed this. Oh well, can't catch every mistake.

Quote
Dominator should be listed as -nova +6 torps for 180 instead of +4 torps imo as this fits better with the other in cruisers in terms of weapon loadout/ cost.

No. Players wanted such a trade-off, but the Dominator receives its Nova for a discount. In an attempt to influence players to prefer the NC, the cost wasn't decreased as much as it would suggest. The 4-torps is from Kar Duniash Cruiser design, which utilize fewer torpedo tubes. Although this isn't necessary, the Dominator is only currently available in the Warden's fleet... if you look at their fleet list you will notice that all cruisers have only 4 torps. This was the method used for making the fleet unique from other IN fleets, allowing a slightly easier access to AC, but fewer torps to compensate. Again the Warden's fleet has a significant loss in firepower/survivability ratio per point of cost as compared to other IN.


Quote
On the last note can we see the cost to upgrade armageddon/lunar/tyrant to nova drop to 10?

I feel the NC is adequately priced, certainly you're losing a weapon, but they are much more viable with the new bands and LO. Besides reducing the cost would only see you 30 points at 1500. Also note the 'cheaper' NCs in the Wardens, as they lose less torps.

Quote
And on space marine ships how about getting the nova frigate an additional turret, its the only frigate with 1 turret and its the most expensive ::)

The Nova Frigate allows SMs access to Lances, it is faster than the Gladius, and is able to fire its lance LFR. It is adequate. Besides, I thought it dropped 5 pts?

Quote
I'd like a puppy too :D

-Your fleet may include a single puppy as it's pet. If it is at least 600 points it must include a puppy to lead it.

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2011, 06:43:29 AM »
Steamroller yes, aaf no. I see a lot of people showing love to the "aaf imp fleet", but I can't really think of a time I've ever used aaf as a tactic. Everytime I've played against someone playing this way I've been able to use it to my advantage. Aaf orders more often than not causes your fleet to become scattered and disorganized due to the random nature of the move. This works well for say orks where you should see what 30ish escorts?, but for a cruiser heavy fleet (most) with minimal squadrons (2 ships typically) its poor form. When your talking about in and aaf your looking at the fleet either being split into two sections (torp armed line and nova/carriers) which allows them to be destroyed peacemeal. Or the fleet has torp armed only, meaning at best your looking at 2? Dictators in a 1500, and they're going to be running TOWA0RDS the guns. How lovely. So yes aaf is a stupid tactic that is easily overcome with some rather simple placement of ships and ordnance. The retribution in this example would likely be the primary target and altho it has the ability to absorb a lot of damage will be lucky to reach the enemy crippled and not destroyed. Now while I do believe that it would take most of a fleet to kill/cripple it while its closing that's an awfully expensive ship to throw away as what? a meat shield for a handful of cruisers to get off early shotguns?

Talk to Phtsis about this. He is completely the opposite on this.

I see merit to the tactic (aaf/torps-shotgun+ac). Not always but it can be used to great effect. But can be thwarted as well. ;)

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2011, 01:12:41 PM »
Quote
Defiant has prow torps and lance is this intentional and would it not be under priced adding the torps? Maybe the weps that are standard on the endeavour and the lances if you want 2 prow weapon types.

It is completely intentional, it was the only option that could be agreed upon for the vessel whilst leaving it in the game. Simply giving it 2 launch bays per side (as it should have by the size of the bays), was regarded as too easy access for the IN. Some suggestions were made for this, such as requiring players to have one Endeavor or Endurance with it, however that is an echo of the old restriction, which was removed with FAQ 2010. Players generally feel that it isn't in the Imperial fleet's character to have low launch bay to vessel cost ratios (they sit at about the highest of any fleet, at 52.5 for their base cruiser, chaos is at 47.5 and Orks at 45.)

So we took some creative initiative, and presumed that the vessel has increased capacity due to the limited launch bays, and is able to fit in the more powerful weapons. This allows it to be an option, like Horizon said, It isn't the best thing in the world, but you won't feel bad for taking it.
Quote

fair enough, and IN should have the slightly overpriced launch to counter the easy access to torps so this is a nice... balance

Quote
Also was it intentional for the voss pattern ships to get the 6+ prow AND 90* turns? On that note is there a chance of seeing an option to increase the armor on the other light cruisers or even better (to keep the voss originality) a +1 to shields on dauntless types.

Yes. This was an absolute necessity to make them more competitive with mainline cruisers, allowing for the 'CL' Armageddon fleet to be viable. Voss' Cls function more like standard IN cruisers, so they need a competitive edge vs the cruisers. The Dauntless has speed and a powerful concentrated firepower, something quite valuable to the IN.
Quote

ah didnt even notice the speed variation ::)

Quote
How about seeing an option to upgrade the hydra's 6 30cm with 45cm batteries for +15 pts ala tyrant but with a higher cost (as your "upgrading" more weps)

No. See my post above about perfect weapons. The Hydra is meant to be a 'throwaway ship', it is the cheapest IN cruiser available, and is treated as such in its fluff. It makes no reference of being able to take more powerful weapons as per the Tyrant.

The Hydra's long ranged weapons are simply a 'quirk' that may help you, but are much more likely not to do anything. The vessel is not intended to fill the role of a long range support vessel, and simply functions as a cheap baseline cruiser. In the Warden's fleet, one would likely look towards 'downgraded' dominators, with their increased range for such a vessel. Then again one of the themes of the Warden's fleet is its limited supplies and sub-par fighting vessels.
Quote

Thats fine i see what you mean about the dominator, however I think that because of just that youll never see a hydra  :P


Quote
What happened to the viper... This is an awesome little ship and much loved.

This is comparable love that people had for the Sedito Opprimere. The Viper is strange in a number of ways, just a Cobra (best non-eldar escort!) but better. The vessel didn't really provide anything unique to the fleet, and wasn't worth the pages.

That said I'm not completely opposed to it being included, particularly if the Bakka fleet makes it back in. Probably would be modelled out of 2 cobras, extending the chassis.
Quote

Quote
Option to increase turrets for armageddon? Only reason for mentioning this is its currently the only cb that does not either already have or have the option to get 3 turrets.

Not really necessary. The Overlord/Mars upgrades were just hangovers from BFG 1.0, when apparently they thought such an upgrade was valuable. The two new BCs have the turrets, primarily for balance. Again..... not every option forever.
Quote

ok, just thought it was odd that this is the only cb without

Quote
Avenger cg is listed as 12 hits

Apparently the Avenger is now the Greatest vessel ever.
J/K, whoops, I'm disappointed I missed this. Oh well, can't catch every mistake.
Quote

Quote
Dominator should be listed as -nova +6 torps for 180 instead of +4 torps imo as this fits better with the other in cruisers in terms of weapon loadout/ cost.

No. Players wanted such a trade-off, but the Dominator receives its Nova for a discount. In an attempt to influence players to prefer the NC, the cost wasn't decreased as much as it would suggest. The 4-torps is from Kar Duniash Cruiser design, which utilize fewer torpedo tubes. Although this isn't necessary, the Dominator is only currently available in the Warden's fleet... if you look at their fleet list you will notice that all cruisers have only 4 torps. This was the method used for making the fleet unique from other IN fleets, allowing a slightly easier access to AC, but fewer torps to compensate. Again the Warden's fleet has a significant loss in firepower/survivability ratio per point of cost as compared to other IN.
Quote

ah i see I havent looked at the fleet lists yet, just ships, wheres the gothic sector list?


Quote
On the last note can we see the cost to upgrade armageddon/lunar/tyrant to nova drop to 10?

I feel the NC is adequately priced, certainly you're losing a weapon, but they are much more viable with the new bands and LO. Besides reducing the cost would only see you 30 points at 1500. Also note the 'cheaper' NCs in the Wardens, as they lose less torps.
Quote

fair enough

Quote
And on space marine ships how about getting the nova frigate an additional turret, its the only frigate with 1 turret and its the most expensive ::)

The Nova Frigate allows SMs access to Lances, it is faster than the Gladius, and is able to fire its lance LFR. It is adequate. Besides, I thought it dropped 5 pts?
Quote

same as the cb option why is it the only one without?


Quote
I'd like a puppy too :D

-Your fleet may include a single puppy as it's pet. If it is at least 600 points it must include a puppy to lead it.
Quote

sweet
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2011, 02:12:11 PM »
Wall of Quotes!

On the Defiant: There are several problems to contend with on the official Defiant :

Firstly, the other Voss CLs have half a cruiser’s armament per side. The Defiant has a quarter. The prow armament is a bit stronger compared to the others (6WBequiv F/L/R compared to 2WB F/L/R & 3WBe F), but this doesn’t properly compensate.

Secondly, in addition to having 1/4 cruiser broadsides, 2 bays have even less value that 4, as 2 bombers are pretty much worthless offensively. This puts Defiants very low down in priority for special orders, therefore reducing their capabilities still further. To be anywhere near effective they MUST squadron with another cruiser, to benefit from the reload orders that cruiser and its 6Torps and possible launch bays would have had anyway. This has its own drawbacks as well.

An additional 2 torps both rebalance the firepower deficit and promote the Defiant in special orders priority. The S2 prow lances can be modelled as 1 on the prow, 1 on the dorsal section to avoid overloading the prow – as mentioned, the LBs may look like full-sized bays, but they aren’t. This gives sufficient space for a dorsal weapon. Indeed, my preferred variant would have been Prow WB2 F/L/R Dorsal WB4 F/L/R, so as to keep the same weapon equivalence but an identical prow to the other Voss, but a lot of people were fundamentally opposed to dorsal weapons on Imperial CLs, regardless of the equivalence in firepower.

These problems were in addition to those suffered by the Voss Cruisers as a whole – Unlike the Dauntless which can focus its firepower on isolated flanks and use its speed to get out of the way of retaliation, the Voss need to be surrounded by enemy ships to make best use of their weapons. In such a situation the loss of prow armour is a critical weakness and 90’ turns barely any help. So we gave them 6+ armour. However at that stage they are just small cruisers. Letting them keep the 90’ turns emphasizes the difference between them and a normal cruiser.

Offline Seahawk

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2011, 07:30:48 PM »
1 LB Strike Cruisers give me a sad  :'( SM are AC strapped enough as it is.

Honestly, I'd rather have the choice forced between extra BC and LB, rather than be able to get both.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2011, 07:37:12 PM by Seahawk »

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2011, 09:05:15 PM »
Not looking at the document but 1 lb strike cruisers is as it must be. Why?
Following is the line of thinking sig, adm d'art, rcg, I and others had:

- The standard variant has 2 shields  per standard.
- Assault variant with more lb


I think I am missing something but that's the key.


Offline Taggerung

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2011, 10:19:54 PM »
Going over the Imperial List 1.6:

Armageddon is still incorrect. You increased the Batteries but not the lances to 45.

Vanguard...shouldn't it have 2 LB's?