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Author Topic: BFG:R Book I The Core Rules: Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread  (Read 66677 times)

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 12:56:40 PM »
Weird, isn't it.

wait...

heh

The latter point your bring up is valid and would be the only reason to keep RSV's in the Marine list.

However, the problem is that RSV's outshine Marine escorts due lower costs. So removing rsv's make standard marine escorts a 'better' chouce'
Plus Firestorms are a too common choice in Marine fleets (yuck, lances ;) )...

Within the AdMech list Marine escorts gain value due lower cost.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2011, 01:51:59 PM »
Retribution is still overpriced. Its actual value should be no more than 320pts this is wither its got 12@60 or 18@45.
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Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2011, 01:58:57 PM »
18 @45cm does warrant the 345pts tag imo.

Imagine the AdMech version with awr on a 320 version....

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2011, 06:05:20 PM »
24@30=18@45=12@60 your sacrificing power for range. That said yes 18@45 would be much better on average but 345pts? The emp is still only 20 points more and packs almost as much fire power @60 and has all those attack craft?
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Offline Plaxor

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2011, 06:39:43 PM »
ACB, we got into this a while back, and I really have no plans for getting back into repricing the official vessels as we have already done. The only vessels I'm particularly concerned with are the 'new' ones.

Personally I agree with Horizon, the Ret is appropriately priced for what it does. Over the Emperor it has more equivalent firepower, a 6+ prow armour (making it fit with the other IN vessels well) and the most important thing, Speed 20! Which means it won't slow your fleet, and it can't be Blast Markered off the board.

Fp 18@45cm>Fp12@60. I know most people would probably trade Fp12@60cm for Fp15@45cm, this is 'roughly' the break even point, so we can assume that Fp 18@45cm is about 1/5th better than Fp 12@60.

Also my impression was that the Emperor is under priced (as it is such an appealing vessel) by probably around 20 points. I think that you're suffering from the same woes, as balance is always a comparison of available choices. The Emperor's impressionable underpricing makes it appear as though the Ret is overpriced. Compare the vessel instead to the other IN battleships, and also the Chaos ones. You will find that the vessel is appropriate.

Remember that people have different views of a vessels efficacy. It is very subjective, and that is why I used a voting system for determining the points cost of these vessels. This is what won out. Additionally no one ever wants to see something get worse (save in cases of particularly broken things) so usually they would prefer everything else get better. This is almost uniformly what I did. In fact there are only two vessels which became worse in BFG:R, the Devastation (widely regarded as OP) and the Hero (which had some internal balance issues).

Around half the other vessels got better, maybe 1/4th remained the same and the last 1/4 were some sort of compromise between the semi-official HA work and my own.

I know a number of people have pushed that fleet lists be done away with and that vessels become more readily available to each fleet. I.e. the IN should be able to take all their vessels in one fleet. Now there is some merit to this, however fleet lists and limitations are designed for two purposes. Firstly and most importantly, it forces all fleets into similar limitations of relative options. Though some fleets have more vessels overall (such as the IN) they are forced to limit their options and fight as though they had comparable limitations to fleets of fewer overall vessels (such as the Necrons). Secondly these limitations are designed to add a unique character  to each fleet, making a different feel and unique niche for the more common fleets, and making each opponent a unique experience. Allowing a large number of vessels prevents such situations, as generally players are good at 'feeling' for which option is the best overall, and one would rarely if ever see some of the slightly less efficacious vessels.

Simply fleet lists are comparable to the 8 dozen SM codecies for 40k, though they are really all just space marines with less difference between all the 'dexes together than the Tau are from their own auxiliary races. Since a majority of 40k players use Space Marines, this allows for them to have a more unique character amongst their numbers. Not to mention the  fact that People would host massive riots if the books were merged.

And even though something was once available to a group does not necessarily mean that it should remain a part of that group. The Space Wolves once had access to Leman Russes in 40k, primarily as a novelty for the name, but the option was lost once the army was fleshed out, and the writers got their heads about them (Leman Russ goes in guard...I get it!). Think of it this way, the game would be a little less fun if every army was toting 6 Leman Russes.

I also had someone rant about 'why not remove ship classes and allow players to build their own ships for appropriate costs'. Again this has to do with the nature of players, when perfect options exist they will be the only ever taken.

Offline horizon

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2011, 08:46:22 PM »
lol on the last remark. BFG is so fluff driven opposed to Full thrust where this is possible. But a balanced fan creation I play against any day.

For official (ahem in this case) I'd stick to what is and the restricted fleet lists. I like fleet lists. They add flava. Flava is good. Generic is boring in the long run.


Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2011, 08:57:24 PM »
Oh yes I agree the emperor is under priced 20pts is probably about right. Even compared to the other battleships the ret feels much less than equal I do need to look back over the chaos bb tho when I get home. That aside how about the oberon! Never expected to see that being the 800lb gorilla :D
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Offline Plaxor

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2011, 09:45:51 PM »
I am a big fan of the Oberon, it is just unique enough for my liking, and has fluff comparable to the Tyrant (hey we tried this but it didn't work as well as we wanted so um....) my other favorite IN vessel.

Oh I've also just finished the alpha version of the Traitor fleets. It is actually kind of funny, because I think I spent about twice as much time on the 3 (now 5) Daemonship pages as the rest of the document (about 25 pages).

I didn't keep a log for this one, but I'll do it from now on. Here were the changes I recall:
-chaos lord re-rolls reduced to 20pts.
-wording on Blackstone fortress' changed slightly.
-13th Black Crusade fleets had their Daemonship allies rules updated to better meld with the rules.
-Marks of Chaos are now available to any Capital Ship (I thought I had done this earlier....) regardless of if they have a character.
-The Havoc Class Raider was technically corrected from a typo, and now has 5+front/4+ armour.

Daemon fleets saw a massive number of changes. As follows:
-Daemonships now have a streamlined deployment system that is carefully worded.
-All Daemonships increased in cost by about 15 points (depending on class) and are required to purchase a mark (Unalligned gain a number of options)
-A Character vessel was added for the Daemons that teleports.
-There were a number of changes to the gifts, and I'm a bit to lazy to write them all so go see for yourself.
-Daemonships now are forced to haunt if they suffer a Bridge Smashed critical.

Most of the Changes for Daemons were to specifically make them more expensive and concise, so that they see fewer problems when I get to the Scenarios (as they would have fewer ships).

It was kind of funny how unrefined that document was....... I wonder how long it has been since I last updated it. I spent a little time making watermarks and a 'chaos symbol' page header, which I'm still not solid on.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 10:14:19 PM by Plaxor »

Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2011, 10:16:31 PM »
No, I don't think the Emperor is underpriced by 20. Maybe 5 at most 10 but certainly not 20. Not with the way the IN mainline cruisers are underpowered compared to their Chaos counterparts. Underpowered in that they cannot focus power to one side per individual ship as well as not having access to cheap and effective carriers in the mainline cruisers. 365 is fine but 370 is ok with me too.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2011, 10:25:01 PM »
20 was an arbitrary number, honestly I think I wanted it increased initially due to the fact that every IN fleet I seemed to face had one. I don't plan on changing its cost, though thinking about it 10 seems proper, but not worth the whinefest.

Also regarding the Bakka Fleet, Victory and AdMech IN escorts; I won't include them in my Alpha (semi-final release), but depending on how things look towards the end they may see the light of day, as well as potential for a few more Inquisition vessel options.

I went through and fixed the errors Tag brought up with the IN fleet. I also did a quick look over the pages and found at least two of my own (nothing that would affect rules, just launch bays with speed and firing directions).
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 11:09:49 PM by Plaxor »

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2011, 01:53:25 AM »
there a reason for the archon to lose a turret or is that a typo?
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2011, 05:32:12 AM »
Ok I finished looking over the chaos and imp battleships and I must apologize your quite correct about the pricing on the retribution, the only thing that didn't make much sense were the desolator (still under priced by a few points) and relictor (over priced by 40ish points). The relictor sounds powerful but just fits with slaughters not the rest of the fleet. I try not to put much faith in the "formulas" for gothic but they seem to agree. As for the desolator, should be closer to 320 it has better armament than the next closest price vanquisher all around and more speed vs 6+ armor and a turret. Could also mean the vanq is over priced but that really sounds about right especially with prow launch/ lose 6+ prow.

Corrected op to overpriced.

Has any one made a vanquisher? I would be interested in seeing one with the "prow" launch modeled.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 01:01:16 AM by AndrewChristlieb »
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline RCgothic

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2011, 07:13:07 PM »
Overpriced and Overpowered mean precisely opposite things, yet both abbreviate to OP.


Offline Admiral_d_Artagnan

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2011, 09:15:52 PM »
20 was an arbitrary number, honestly I think I wanted it increased initially due to the fact that every IN fleet I seemed to face had one. I don't plan on changing its cost, though thinking about it 10 seems proper, but not worth the whinefest.

It's like this mainly because the Dictator is so expensive.

Offline Plaxor

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Re: BFG:R Updates, Feedback & Comments Thread
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2011, 03:08:19 AM »
Dictator at 210 seems palatable, but yes, I'm afraid that since the Dictator and the Mars were overpriced, and the Exorcist was much more so the Emperor reigned!

Oh, I've been thinking a little about the Traitor fleets, I'm planning on changing the 'Maelstrom' fleet to  simply have space marine allies (which would fit in as them being renegades), and removing the CSM option.

Also I will probably modify the fluff so that it alludes to the perfidian gap more, for both the Wardens fleet and the Maelstrom one, as it makes more sense distance wise.

I'm planning on removing the Daemon critical hits reference, and simply adding a 'daemonic instability' rule. Which would either state:

At the beggining of your movement phase before issuing any special orders Daemon fleets must check to see if any of their vessels are instable.
-For any Daemonship that has its leadership reduced to 5 or less for any reason, or combination thereof, must make a leadership check or immediately disengage.
0r
-For any Daemonship that is crippled must pass a leadership check or immediately disengage.

Tell me which you like better.