1500 SM fleet - old to new

[Seahawk]

I used to run my Ultramarines fleet as follows:

Battlebarge - master of the fleet, 2 rerolls
Strike Cruiser
Strike Cruiser
Strike Cruiser
Strike Cruiser
6 Gladius Frigates
3 Sword Frigates

The cruisers were all squadroned together for superior firepower. Stuff did stuff, and was generally quite successful. Now, I actually have options! Given that I have no other ships (but am sorely tempted to do the following), here is my thought to a new-age list:

Seditio Opprimere - master of the fleet, 2 rerolls
Strike Cruiser - shield, prow bombardment cannon swap
Strike Cruiser - shield, prow bombardment cannon swap
Strike Cruiser - shield
Strike Cruiser - shield
6 Gladius Frigates

For starters, I'm excited the Seditio Opprimere made it into the fleet list, despite its equipment changes. Compared to a regular battlebarge, +25 points for extra shield and turret, minus a thunderhawk, and BC all around...seems very worth it to me. I worked out the maths on firepowers, and in most cases the VBB comes out a little stronger. The only downside I feel is the 100%/150% victory points rule. Has anyone used a VBB before, and has it been a game swinger?

Next, the SC. Extra shields are a definite go, and more thumping with BC is amazing. Again, they'll be squadroned together. It feels like they'll do their job like before, but much better.

Overall, I'm losing out on 5 squadrons of thunderhawks which is kind of a downer, but I still have 6 to fly CAP or do something mean when needed. The Sword squadron was always useful, but usually more just an afterthought. I'm not sure yet whether their loss will be hurtful or not, but that's what your opinions are for. I also have 40 points to spend, but I don't know what to do with it. I could just bring one Sword or Hunter...

[horizon]

Hi, I Would recommend against the bc upgrade to the strike cruiser. It is to strong. Iirc most people only wanted 3bc as the option.

[Seahawk]

So as a matter of niceness, I should revert to the second-rate fleet list? I will in friendly games to be sure, especially since most other players have a fraction of the experience.

What about the rest of it? What do I do with 40 points leftover? I don't want to take another escort and split up the squadron...I suppose I could sac a reroll to get terminators.

[Sigoroth]

There was quite a lot of discussion regarding the SM Strike Cruisers, and I think that what ended up being put in the document was mainly just Nate's take on them, rather than the best or most popular idea going around. For example, myself and a number of others came to the conclusion that the 2nd shield should be standard on the SC but at the same time that the SC was pretty jam packed with goodies to begin with. So the prow THs were reduced to strength 1 to compensate. This seemed more in line with the launch bay size, the TH to normal AC ratio seen elsewhere and the strike cruiser to battlebarge size difference. This straight swap (1 TH for 1 shield) addressed a couple of issue, namely that the SC already had quite a lot of stuff for something that was mainly meant to be a defensive ship and also that the Space Marines were too fragile, which did not fit with their fluff nor sit right in game play. This last factor is quite noticeable due to the fact that the SMs have no 8 hit line cruiser, which though fluffy made them too weak.

This change however reduces the overall AC available to a SM fleet. While SMs were really very AC heavy and therefore a reduction is warranted in the norm, the option to go AC heavy should still remain. So a solution was made to make a carrier variant SC with its broadside WBs replaced with 1 TH each side for +15 pts (160 total). With a limitation of 1 per other SC this brings the maximum back up to current. This change had the added benefits of providing variety and options. Ship variety is good for the fleet as a whole and having the option to not go AC heavy is also good.

At this point other variants were introduced, such as the option to replace the strength 1 prow launch bay with torpedoes (3-4) or bombardment cannon (str 2 LFR). This gave quite a few variants (normal, torp, BC, carrier), allowed the SM player to customise his fleet much more and fixed the SCs issues regarding fragility and having too much total firepower. Instead Nate chose to make the 2nd shield optional and give an imba bombardment cannon option which anyone with a quarter of a brain would take at every opportunity.

Given the ridiculous ability to hide ships within squadrons this means that you don't have to buy the shield for all ships and so you can be even more imba. So when someone says that the BC option shouldn't be taken they mean that it was stupid good and shouldn't have been included in the document, since there was a better option on the table.

However, I quite like the SO that Nate came up with. However, the standard BB should be 4 shields and turrets (+0-10 pts) against which the SO is balanced.

[Vaaish]

I'd like to put my two cents in on the BC version. It's a very powerful SC, but it has to face prow on to do most of the damage and you have to time it to hit first rather than let an opponent target them since they will attract a lot of fire. As long as you don't stack your fleet with them I don't find them OP; however it's really easy to just take a fleet of SC and give half the upgrade at which point they get VERY OP. I've used two in a squadron to good effect and while hard hitting, they aren't unbeatable or entirely reliable. Personally I think the 3BC upgrade would have been better in an unrestricted setting or making it a more limited upgrade with the current stats.

[Seahawk]

Yea...if I had the money to get another 4 strike cruisers so I could have a fleet of 8....I still doubt I'd actually do that.

So many bombardments in 1500 points...

[Seahawk]

Still, what should I do with my remaining 40 points? On one hand, I could get a cheap escort but it will break up the 6-strong Gladius squadron and I'd rather not.

On the other hand, I could sac a shield and gain terminators for the SO, but that would make the ship worth 600 points if crippled.......

[Vaaish]

Seditio Opprimere
Strike Cruiser + Shield
Strike Cruiser + Shield
Strike Cruiser + Shield
Strike Cruiser + Bombardment Cannon
Strike Cruiser + Bombardment Cannon
Gladius
Gladius
Gladius
Gladius
Gladius


I think this is what I was fiddling with using the SedO. 1445 points so 1495 points with the MotF.

[Seahawk]

Hmmm...that 5th SC is very tempting.

I suppose rerolls for marines are overrated...but then, I have failed often enough to warrant their inclusion. Your thoughts?

[Vaaish]

Depends really. I do alright without the extra rerolls and haven't had a time that I really think would have changed the outcome if I'd had some. If you have problems, then you might find the rerolls more valuable.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I like where your going with that Vaaish, but if you swap the Glads for Swords you can take shields on all of the SC. Swords are 5cm slower, but that still matches the SC.

SO w/MotF                                500
3x launch SC w/extra shield     480
2x bombard SC w/extra shield 320
5x Sword                                  200

[Vaaish]

You can do that and it crossed my mind but the original constraint when I did that fleet was to use the same ship I've got with my regular SM fleet. Basically the list I posted is my Marine fleet with the battlebarge and the two shields on the bombardment SC swapped for the SedO. Gave me an alternative setup without needed to steal ships from my IN fleet.

In this instance it might be better to go with the swords.

[Seahawk]

Hmm. Would need one extra pack of swords to go with that idea.

Although, if I simply drop the rerolls, I can get a pair of Hunters or Swords (I'm trying to work with models I already have):

[500] SO - MotF
[160] SC - shield, bc
[160] SC - shield, bc
[160] SC - shield
[160] SC - shield
[270] 6 Gladius
[80] 2 Hunter or 2 Sword

That puts me at 1490. The two Hunters could be a useful back-door torpedo deterrent? Swords would...do something?

[edit] I do have some IN Firestorms that are just gathering dust. Their 90 points would bring me to a perfect 1500...would they be more useful/better than Hunters (or Swords)?

[Vaaish]

Personally I've not found two hunters to really be all that impressive or useful. Needs to be more like 4 or 5 to be effective. If you are trying to use the models you've got, either keep what you posted and the rerolls or give the extra SC a go.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Proxy your glads as swords, I dont know about your group but I proxy all the time. Hunters/Cobras are a personal favorite of mine , but 2 just are not enough to bother. They need to run in groups of 3-6 to have an effective torp spread, even against other escorts. You could take 3 Cobras, if you have the models or proxies.