I've been out for a while...

[Seahawk]

It's been a long time since I've been here...back then, things were still up for debate for the new FAQ and such. Now, it's already approaching nigh on 2 years since their release.

Things got boinked, as far as I can tell.

I've been poking through the various pdf's to see what's changed, though to be honest I don't quite remember what things used to be. I need to be getting back into the swing of things since I'll be sailing to Adepticon next spring. I tried to find some topics from the last 8 pages or so that could help me along but didn't really find anything of great value.

Would you, the lovely forum-fellows, be so kind as to help me out here? I'm looking for some summaries that I can look further into if I get thinking about it. For instance...what are the major changes for each fleet? The main rules? What ships got changed and how? And ultimately...WHY were these changes made? I know it's a lot to ask for but your help is greatly appreciated.


I'll list some things I noticed were changes. Just some explanations are needed for these.

One thing I did notice was the torpedo max size is 3-wide...why? I figured 6-wide would be a good max cap, even for squadron fire.

Another thing is attack craft. All of mine are mounted on the Epic bases, 5 ships wide. Am I going to be punished now and have to rip them all off to be replaced with 20mm squares? I'd sincerely hate to do that and think it's just a petty thing.

Under Capital ship squadrons, the rules seem clunky. Having to roll each hit for a crit one at a time? Why not just "apply 7 hits to the first full-strength Dauntless and it's dead, then applying the last 6 hits against the next Dauntless, rolling for Criticals if it survived..." There's also something about gunnery and being able to hit more than the first ship...

"The only ways to shoot at a more distant member of a squadron is with gunnery weapons if the ship has more left modifiers on the gunnery table..." 

I mean honestly, wtf does this even mean? It's grammatically terrible and doesn't even really say anything, so that needs some clear explanation as I always use a squadron of capital ships and have tactics to ensure the rear ships don't get hit.


Transports. This is in reference to having "6 points of transports," for instance. Is this handy chart accurate?

Special Transports = 1/2 Standard Transport and cost in "upgrade points."
- Q ships, Armed Freighters, Escort Carriers, Fast Clippers
Standard Transports = 1 Standard Transport and are free!
- Transport
Heavy Transports = 2 Standard Transports and cost in "upgrade points."
- Heavy Transport

[Sigoroth]

One thing I did notice was the torpedo max size is 3-wide...why? I figured 6-wide would be a good max cap, even for squadron fire.

It's an issue of scale. Torpedo salvoes shouldn't be able to cover that large an area. I myself was fine with a 6 wide maximum cap, but it is more sensible to have it smaller when you look at scale. If they're in a single salvo then size shouldn't equate to a larger area as they'd all be grouped up.

Another thing is attack craft. All of mine are mounted on the Epic bases, 5 ships wide. Am I going to be punished now and have to rip them all off to be replaced with 20mm squares? I'd sincerely hate to do that and think it's just a petty thing.

They should never have been mounted on those bases. When you use models to represent the attack craft markers of the game then they should comply with those markers in terms of size. Having a wider wave gives a larger area of denial and having a narrower depth allows for easier blast marker avoidance. In short, put them on the 20mm x 20mm bases.

Under Capital ship squadrons, the rules seem clunky. Having to roll each hit for a crit one at a time? Why not just "apply 7 hits to the first full-strength Dauntless and it's dead, then applying the last 6 hits against the next Dauntless, rolling for Criticals if it survived..." There's also something about gunnery and being able to hit more than the first ship...

The way the current squadron rules work is that you can't target anything but the closest ship in the squadron that your gunnery can hit. So let's consider a 3 ship squadron, Lunar, Dominator and Dauntless for example. The Lunar is closest, the Dauntless the furthest. Fire coming in from the front of all 3 ships must target the Lunar, except that any WB rolls of a 5 will hit the Dauntless (assuming it's in range) because they can hit it and they can't hit the Lunar. Rolls of a 6 however will hit the Lunar.

The same squadron rules stipulate that once a ship is destroyed remaining hits will roll over to the next closest eligible target. So if you rolled four 5's and six 6's against the above squadron the Dauntless would take 1 shield hit and 3 hull hits. Roll for crits as normal. The Lunar would take 2 shield hits and 4 hull hits. However, what if you happen to roll a crit and then get a bulkhead collapse and then roll a 6. That means the Lunar will have taken 10 hull hits. In this case the order of crits matters. If the crit was cause from the 1st or 2nd hull hit then that will leave 2 hits left over and these would be applied to the next closest ship, the Dominator, dropping its shields. If it was from the 3rd hull hit then 1 hit would spill over. If it was the 4th then no hits would spill over. What if the Lunar then explodes? Or maybe there's still some lances to come. Does the Dominator have shields or not? This is why you roll the crits individually after each hit.

"The only ways to shoot at a more distant member of a squadron is with gunnery weapons if the ship has more left modifiers on the gunnery table..." 

I mean honestly, wtf does this even mean? It's grammatically terrible and doesn't even really say anything, so that needs some clear explanation as I always use a squadron of capital ships and have tactics to ensure the rear ships don't get hit.

Yeah, wording isn't great but the rule is important. Say for example you're shooting at a squadron of capital ships. You've manoeuvred to be able to get a bow shot on one of them. However the closest ship in the squadron is abeam of you. Does this mean that you're forced to shoot at an abeam target? If so, then a close box formation squadron of Chaos ships could stop you from ever firing at their prow. Basically, you've got the choice to go for the best shot. If you do so however you'll be unable to hit the ignored ship. So your opponent has an abeam Dominator and a closing Dauntless in squadron, you can choose to use the 'closing' column for determining your firepower. However you can only hit the Dauntless. Any spill over hits will be wasted. If you use the abeam column then you can hit the Dominator and any spill over hits will go onto the Dauntless as normal.

Similarly consider a squadron of 5 Firestorm frigates with 1 Sword frigate. The Firestorms need to be prow on to fire their lance but the Sword can be abeam. So if you positioned the Sword closer to the target and put it abeam you could protect the entire squadron from closing fire if the opponent were not allowed to choose to use the closing column.

Transports. This is in reference to having "6 points of transports," for instance. Is this handy chart accurate?

Special Transports = 1/2 Standard Transport and cost in "upgrade points."
- Q ships, Armed Freighters, Escort Carriers, Fast Clippers
Standard Transports = 1 Standard Transport and are free!
- Transport
Heavy Transports = 2 Standard Transports and cost in "upgrade points."
- Heavy Transport

For scenarios that use transports, yes. For including transports in other battles as part of your fleet list then refer to the Rogue Trader document (transports cost 10 pts).

[Seahawk]

Another thing is attack craft. All of mine are mounted on the Epic bases, 5 ships wide. Am I going to be punished now and have to rip them all off to be replaced with 20mm squares? I'd sincerely hate to do that and think it's just a petty thing.

They should never have been mounted on those bases. When you use models to represent the attack craft markers of the game then they should comply with those markers in terms of size. Having a wider wave gives a larger area of denial and having a narrower depth allows for easier blast marker avoidance. In short, put them on the 20mm x 20mm bases.

I can't abide by that. These were the only bases supplied with the AC and there were no rules on how to base them (I've seen many people with 25mm rounds as their bases...). On the plus side, I've always put them one in front of each other, making their footprint 40mm x 20.4mm, making it almost exactly the same as a normal pair of squadrons. I guess I'll just have to talk to TO's beforehand.

Under Capital ship squadrons, the rules seem clunky. Having to roll each hit for a crit one at a time? Why not just "apply 7 hits to the first full-strength Dauntless and it's dead, then applying the last 6 hits against the next Dauntless, rolling for Criticals if it survived..." There's also something about gunnery and being able to hit more than the first ship...

snip.

Ahh. I just figured, if you caused enough hits to kill it, you don't bother rolling for crits.

"The only ways to shoot at a more distant member of a squadron is with gunnery weapons if the ship has more left modifiers on the gunnery table..." 

I mean honestly, wtf does this even mean? It's grammatically terrible and doesn't even really say anything, so that needs some clear explanation as I always use a squadron of capital ships and have tactics to ensure the rear ships don't get hit.

Yeah, stuff

Ahh, okay. I thought that's what the second line was saying, making the quoted line above...well it makes my brain sad . Thanks for explaining it.


Further reading has given me the idea that the Adeptus Astartes fleet got a bit more powerful, what with the simul-fire and choosing which hit shields and which hit hull. My squadron of SC's putting out 22FP Bombardment Cannon shots (ideally) and having more shields will take some getting used to...the giggities are strong with the force at the moment!

[Sigoroth]

I can't abide by that. These were the only bases supplied with the AC and there were no rules on how to base them (I've seen many people with 25mm rounds as their bases...). On the plus side, I've always put them one in front of each other, making their footprint 40mm x 20.4mm, making it almost exactly the same as a normal pair of squadrons. I guess I'll just have to talk to TO's beforehand.

The bases supplied with the models are irrelevant. The fighters and bombers you get from FW don't even have bases. I bought some Aeronautica Imperialis Tau drones to use as mines but I don't use the Aeronautica bases for them. Go by the game, not what's at hand.

Ahh. I just figured, if you caused enough hits to kill it, you don't bother rolling for crits.

Normally you wouldn't. It's only when there's the possibility of hits spilling over to another ship in the squadron that it becomes necessary.

Further reading has given me the idea that the Adeptus Astartes fleet got a bit more powerful, what with the simul-fire and choosing which hit shields and which hit hull. My squadron of SC's putting out 22FP Bombardment Cannon shots (ideally) and having more shields will take some getting used to...the giggities are strong with the force at the moment!

A ruling that I personally dislike and that we don't use in my group.

[AndrewChristlieb]

I thought Q ships and escort carriers gave up their entire transport capacity in favor of their weapons. Would this not make them worth 0 transports?

[Seahawk]

That's where I get confused on them.

Armada says:
- You may replace regular freighters with these ships [special transports] on a one-for-one basis.
- Escort Carriers do not count as freighters for victory conditions.
- An armed freighter reduces its cargo capacity to carry bigger guns and reactors; it therefor counts as only half a freighter in scenarios that involve them.

FAQ 2010 says:
- Any special transport such as an armed freighter or fast clipper in Armada or any other fleet list that counts as half a transport for victory conditions is also only worth 1 assault point. Two of these vessels are equivalent to a single regular transport, and such vessels round down for purposes of victory conditions.

- For every heavy transport in the fleet there must already be at least four escort-sized full transports, eight half-transports such as armed freighters or Rogue Trader cargo vessels, or any combination thereof.

- Q-ships have no transport value. Escort carriers count as a special transport for purposes of use in scenarios that call for transports, but they have no transport or assault point value for purposes of determining victory conditions.


So it seems like you determine how many transports you can take by their transport value. Does that mean you could take unlimited Q-ships and escort carriers, provided there was no point limit on it? Since they count as 0 transports...



Unrelated question: how much of what was changed was done by the community, and was any of it done by GW? If so, which parts?

[horizon]

Gw did do nothing nada noppes. Ray, Bob & Nate are the High Admirality, the BFG rules committee. They are appointed by GW but not paid by GW. So freelance.

They worked pretty close with the community. Many opinions many views. So some parts are really community driven. Especially the Marine & Tau list from the compendium have seen a lot of fan driven things. Which is what makes them good. Not 100% but not bad as well.

Some things in the FAQ are pretty much pushed by the HA. Like stacking. iirc of the 20 people only 2 people liked it....

[Seahawk]

Wuzzat that stacking ships nonsense I read? "Have extra flying stands handy?" Yea, at $54654 each, I'll make sure to have plenty along...

[AndrewChristlieb]

When did they drop the price on stands?

[Sigoroth]

Yes, Q-ships and escort carriers aren't transports, but they take up the space of one in transport relevant scenarios. So a more accurate table would be:


Special Transports = 0 Transport capability, replace standard with and pay cost:
- Q ships, Escort Carriers.
Special Transports = 1/2 Transport capability, replace standard with and pay cost:
- Armed Freighters, Fast Clippers.
Standard Transports = 1 Standard Transport and are free!
- Transport
Heavy Transports = 2 Standard Transports, replace up to 1/3 of your transports on a 2/1 basis and pay cost:
- Heavy Transport

[Seahawk]

Okie dokie, that makes sense then.


Back to my original thoughts...were there any fundamental rules changes I should know about? Did MMS ever get approved?