Armageddon Fleet 3k

[Sigoroth]

Indeed the Emperor is a good perennial choice for a BB. Alas, as the official rules stand it is the only good IN BB. This is why I recommend house rules for the Apoc and the Oberon. I also recommend house rules for the Retribution too, but didn't mention it or the Emperor because you didn't bring either up. I have the outlook that to play BFG using completely official rules is excruciating, so I'm all for house rules and don't see why someone shouldn't be able to take fluffy choices like the Apocalypse and Oberon in an Armageddon fleet.

It should be noted that the Oberon originally had 60cm guns at its present cost of 335 pts. At the time the Emperor was only 345 pts (and the Retribution was 365 pts). With continual complaints that the Retribution was rubbish (still is) and the Emperor was fantastic (still is) the HA elected to swap their points values as a final solution, making the Emperor 20 pts more expensive and the Retribution 20 pts cheaper. Before these changes the Oberon was balanced compared to the Emperor, not as good but cheaper and definitely playable. Instead of simply adding 20 pts to the cost of the Oberon just like the Emperor the HA decided to drop back its range to 45cm instead. This came completely from left field. No one complained about the Oberon, there was nothing wrong with the Oberon and it functioned in the same manner as the Emperor. The HA broke it.

At the same time the HA increased the cost of the Armageddon from 235 pts to 245 pts, again, a complete surprise to the community, as it was just feasible at 235 pts. It took considerable campaigning to and argument to get it reduced back to a tolerable points cost.

Also, the original Blast Marker rules stipulated that only fire that traced a line through the actual BM was subjected to a right column shift. After the massed turret rules came out there was an introduction of a shared shield rule (designed to balance the massed turret rules) which allowed for the movement of BMs off their direct line. This made it possible for beardy players to take advantage of the fact and move BMs out of the way of subsequent fire, therefore gaining more efficent firepower. In response to this the HA ruled that a BM in base contact counts as being in contact all around the base, therefore all incoming fire would be effected, regardless of whether it passed through an actual BM. This change reduced the effectiveness of WBs (which were balanced just fine) as well as reduced strategic play (using a flanking force to drop shields away from subsequent lines of fire used to be viable). This change was retarded.

The upshot of all this is that if I were you I'd use house rules. Reading these forums will give you an idea of where imbalances lie and what fixes should be used. Fan files such as BFG: Revised are also a good guide (though I will admit that these seem to go beyond their original remit).

[wargame_insomniac]

Thanks for the eplanations. I don't get to play BFG regularly. When I do I will be playing against someone using the BFG rulebook, maybe Armada. So house rules would be right out for me.

Unless i can produce a a Fanatic Online or GW PDF then I won't be able to use it.

Am happy to go for the Emperor as I have always liked that ship, and think it is still worthwhile at 365 points. My 2nd BB would then be Apocalypse just because I can take one in an Armageddon sector fleet, and also because it looks cool.

But I take your point and if I am only fielding one BB then it will be the Emperor.

I take it that you are ok with my cruiser choices??

Cheers

James

[Sigoroth]

On 6 Voss Cruiser hulls- I think I would find 4 Armageddon BC's and 2 'sDictator a bit boring. I would be happy enough with 2 Armageddon- as you say they are the signature ships of the fleet, and I gather good squadronned as a pair.

Fair nuff.

No love for Lunar/Tyrant/Gothic? Would a mixed squadron of these work in Battlefleet Armageddon, with my ships above?

The Lunar is the ubiquitous line cruiser of almost all IN fleets. A good deal of other ship classes are actual refit Lunars. However, they're not my favourite. I prefer my versatility at a fleet level, not at a ship level. I would prefer a Dominator/Gothic rather than Lunar/Lunar, differences in prow weaponry notwithstanding. I find both the Gothic and the Dominator to be good line cruisers. The Gothic is a great support ship and the Dominator initially a great artillery ship and eventually a good knife fighter. Alas the latter can only be taken as a reserve in the Armageddon fleet.

Typically I find the Tyrant to be craptastic. It costs more than a Lunar/Gothic and sacrifices firepower to gain range, which is completely worthless without at least having the upgrade (making it even more expensive than a Dominator, which at least has a NC upgrade). And this range is not only inefficient for the type of weaponry (+15cm is worth more on a Gothic than it is for a Dominator) but range is not a great upgrade for IN line ships. This is because they pay a lot for their prow armour and their prow weapon does not combine with their broadside. Therefore they should generally be pointed directly at their opponent. They also do not have as much direct focusable firepower as their cheaper Chaos analogues. This means that to get their points value you need to get targets in both broadsides. This requirement, along with maximising the use of the prow armour and weaponry means that IN line cruisers tend to charge the enemy and split their lines. In this role there is no need for range beyond 30cm. Also, few IN ships have much in the way of range. The Tyrant is the only cruiser with greater than 30cm range in the IN fleet and as such it will usually be ineffectual, doing no more than dropping shields. This is unlike, say, Chaos, which has only 1 30cm cruiser. Chaos does a lot more at range.

So the Tyrant is crap because it is expensive, it is weak, and its range is ineffectual. This is for 3 reasons: because it is on the wrong weapon system; because range contradicts the ships role and because range is unsupported by other IN cruisers.

In the Armageddon fleet list there is the possibility of a much greater proportion of battlecruisers, all of which have at least 45cm range. This opens the possibility of constructing a medium range IN fleet. So you could use Tyrants in conjunction with Armageddons. This will negate the last objection to the value of range, support from the rest of the fleet. All the other objections to the Tyrant stand and I would not use it.

[wargame_insomniac]

Thanks for the feedback.

My main IN Gothic sector fleet has 1 Mars, 1 Overlord,  1 Dictator, 1 Dominator/Tyrant, 2 Lunar, 2 Gothic and 2 Dauntless.

So it would be nice to have this Armageddon fleet to play differently-hence my likiking of the medium range IN idea. So I think 2 Armageddon, 1 Mars, 2 Tyrant, 1 Dictator gives me something different,as a fleet, and also 4 different cruiser classes for variety.

Thanks

James

[AndrewChristlieb]

Hum I have always favored a tyrant/ bc pair flanking while my line cruisers ram it down their throats. They do suck if that's all you have going for you tho. Building an IN range fleet is making it Chaos with weaker weapons :/.
Imperial bb's are... a joke. Apoc should have 20cm move, retribution... oh boy really just needs more guns I guess, and the oberon was rocking when they released it... then they nerfed it.

[wargame_insomniac]

Hum I have always favored a tyrant/ bc pair flanking while my line cruisers ram it down their throats. They do suck if that's all you have going for you tho. Building an IN range fleet is making it Chaos with weaker weapons :/.

Well I have 6 hulls, 1 of which is a Dictator. If I go for 3 BC's to maximise the Armageddon sector fleet special rule, then I have 2 slots left. That means I can pick any 2 out of Tyrant/Lunar/Gothic.

If I go for 2 Lunar/Gothic they would go together well as a squadron. But how well would they work with other 4?

Thanks

James

[AndrewChristlieb]

The lunar is a lower range cheaper geddon and the gothic is awesome on a stick covered in awesome sauce... so long as its not out by its self. The lunar/ gothic combo will work well but you would be better served by a lunar/lunar as even with 6 lances you might have problems bringing the damage. Dominator/ Gothic is a classic and for good reason the dom can knock out shields then the gothic can gut them with no need for squadrons to keep one from being affected by the others shooting. Plus if your running a mars the dominator gives you the much needed (imo) second nova. The dictator / Lunar/ gothic can play off of each other well with the lunar attacking then the dictator throwing its 2 cents in and then the gothic finishing things off.

[wargame_insomniac]

The lunar is a lower range cheaper geddon and the gothic is awesome on a stick covered in awesome sauce... so long as its not out by its self. The lunar/ gothic combo will work well but you would be better served by a lunar/lunar as even with 6 lances you might have problems bringing the damage. Dominator/ Gothic is a classic and for good reason the dom can knock out shields then the gothic can gut them with no need for squadrons to keep one from being affected by the others shooting. Plus if your running a mars the dominator gives you the much needed (imo) second nova. The dictator / Lunar/ gothic can play off of each other well with the lunar attacking then the dictator throwing its 2 cents in and then the gothic finishing things off.

Hi  Yes but I cant take a Dominator in Armageddon Sector fleet list.

So that takes me back to 2 out Tyrant/Lunar/Gothic. If we discount the Gothic/Gothic and Gothic Lunar combinations that leaves me either Tyrant/Tyrant or Lunar/Lunar. Which of these would work better with my other 4 ships?

Thanks

James

[horizon]

Hi  Yes but I cant take a Dominator in Armageddon Sector fleet list.

Yes you can.
Reserve Rules (is in armada, so official etc etc etc).

For every 3 cruisers from your Armageddon fleet list you can take 1 cruiser (not available to Armageddon) from another Imperial Navy list.

So that takes me back to 2 out Tyrant/Lunar/Gothic. If we discount the Gothic/Gothic and Gothic Lunar combinations that leaves me either Tyrant/Tyrant or Lunar/Lunar. Which of these would work better with my other 4 ships?

Gothic/Dominator 
or
Lunar/Lunar

[wargame_insomniac]

Hi  Yes but I cant take a Dominator in Armageddon Sector fleet list.

Yes you can.
Reserve Rules (is in armada, so official etc etc etc).

For every 3 cruisers from your Armageddon fleet list you can take 1 cruiser (not available to Armageddon) from another Imperial Navy list.

So that takes me back to 2 out Tyrant/Lunar/Gothic. If we discount the Gothic/Gothic and Gothic Lunar combinations that leaves me either Tyrant/Tyrant or Lunar/Lunar. Which of these would work better with my other 4 ships?

Gothic/Dominator 
or
Lunar/Lunar

Thanks- do Cruisers taken via Reserve rule count towards the number of BC's you can take?

i.e. can I take 3 BC's, 2 normal cruisers and 1 reserve cruiser?

Thanks

James

[AndrewChristlieb]

Yes, but the wording has to be different for it to be "legal". You can take two cruisers+ two bc which gives you more than enough to bring in a reserve ship and the reserve ship allows you to bring in another bc.

[wargame_insomniac]

The thing is that I have never been that keen on Dominator. It feels too contracdicatory to me- a long ranged prow weapon and then short ranged broadsides. It is neither a sniper or a pure knifefighter.

For me having a Tyrant with NC and Dominator with torps would make much more sense.

Hence my reluctance to do Dominator/Gothic. My Gothic sector fleet has a pair of Lunars. I was just trying to do something different.

Thanks

James

[horizon]

The Dominator is awesome. 12 weapon batteries is great.
Dominator + Gothic.
NC+30cm wb is actually quite okay. As under 30cm the NC doesn't work.

The Tyrant needs to choose at the 45cm range what it wants to do.
i. use 10 wb  or NC
or wait to 30cm and have less wb then a Dominator.

[wargame_insomniac]

The Dominator is awesome. 12 weapon batteries is great.
Dominator + Gothic.
NC+30cm wb is actually quite okay. As under 30cm the NC doesn't work.

The Tyrant needs to choose at the 45cm range what it wants to do.
i. use 10 wb  or NC
or wait to 30cm and have less wb then a Dominator.

Dominator is 190 points. I can get 2 upgraded Tyrants with 45cm range for 195 points each.

If my 2 Armageddons, 1 Mars and 1 Dicator are also looking to keep their distance, then 45cm WB range fits in nicely?

Thanks

James

[Sigoroth]

Thanks- do Cruisers taken via Reserve rule count towards the number of BC's you can take?

i.e. can I take 3 BC's, 2 normal cruisers and 1 reserve cruiser?

Yes. In fact you can take 1 Dominator, 1 other (non-reserve) cruiser and 2 battlecruisers. For example, if you take a Dominator, a Gothic, an Armageddon and a Mars you will have 3 non-reserve cruisers (Gothic, Armageddon, Mars) which makes the Dominator legal and you will have 1 cruiser (Dominator, Gothic) for each battlecruiser (Armageddon, Mars), which is also legal for the Armageddon fleet list.

Fleet composition requirements have to be observed, but not sequentially. You don't have to observe them 'on the fly' as you construct your fleet, they simply have to be satisfied before you finalise your list. When playing a campaign your full roster must adhere to your fleet restrictions but the fleet that you select from your roster to play games doesn't have to. So if you had a 2000 pt fleet roster and wanted to have 2 Emperors you'd need at least 6 cruisers and/or battlecruisers in your roster. If you were to play, say, a 750 pt game you could select both Emperors without any escorting cruisers at all.