Tau Fluff Questions

[Dan_Lee]

Regarding the Arco cannon: I wouldn't count it as an exterminatus weapon. In the game it could shoot from one planet to another, but the blast radius was a few tens of metres at best. I'd class an exterminatus weapon as something that can de-populate a planet in either a single shot or after a few hours of bombardment. The Arcon cannon would take years to cover the surface of a planet.

As for Imperial exterminatus: when I played 40k as a kid I condoled myself with the thought that even if my space marines lost the battle (which they always did), I'd just exterminate the planet and so still ultimately win. However I believe the actual Imperial strategy (from the Dark Heresy rpg IIRC) is that a planet is only subject to exterminatus if the cost of not doing so would be more than one planet. I.e. if a planet has fallen to chaos it wont be exterminated, as in the future it could be brought back to the Imperium. But if the planet is very likely to then spawn a chaos crusade which would endanger more worlds, then it would be subject to exterminatus. Similarly, a world that will inevitably fall to the Tyranids may be exterminated to prevent the Tyranids from getting more biomass.

The Imperium doesn't do exterminatus on a whim as the weapons required to do so either cannot be reproduced or are very expensive to produce.

[Kelsik]

Im quite sure the Imperium still knows how to build  a wmd.  And I think you stated it well on the criteria that use of wmd would be sanctioned.
The Aun also will be forced to make such decisions.  The Red Corsairs are also based the eastern edge of the galaxy and will come into conflict with the Tau at some time.  Huron wouldnt hesitate to use a wmd to clear the way to a prize wanted,  even if a billion souls  were to be sacrificed to his gods to do it. ( well in his and any chaos thrall,  the more dead the merrier).


As for the Arco Cannon not measuring up to a wmd,  Its not a world killer.  Its a tacticle weapon used to clear opposition.  Its range is impressive  id wager its rate of fire  is too.
Is it a useful tool to clear out a star system let alone a single  world?  Yes,  but like many tools,  haveing more than one would be  requireed to do the job in a timely manner.  In DoW Soulstorm its a base weapon.  The Kor o vesh ( Tau second generation navy)  should explore  adapting the weapon concept as a ship mounted system. 

[Dan_Lee]

I think I need to make it clear that, in my mind, weapons of mass destruction and exterminatus weapons aren't the same thing. The former take out cities, the latter take out planets.

A warship or fleet may be able to hang in orbit and bombard a planet with its "conventional" weapons, and each shot may level entire city blocks, but that does not constitute an exterminatus.

Arco cannon: long range doesn't necessarily equal high rate of fire. It could indicate a very low rate of fire as it takes a long time to build up its charge. Despite it's impressive range, ultimately it only kills a handful of humans per shot (in DoW Astartes could even withstand a direct hit), so it's nowhere near an exterminatus or even a wmd.

The Tau may well face situations where an exterminatus is necessary, but I don't think they do it because 1) they have far less worlds to loose than the Imperium, 2) I've never seen it mentioned in the fluff that I've read, 3) I see the Tau as being relatively naive. The Imperium kills xenos because the Emperor, in his infinite wisdom, told humanity not to trust aliens and to mercilessly eliminate all threats. The Tau see enemies as potential allies (vassals) and so may well decide to send in  more water caste ambassadors rather than more fire warriors.

[Kelsik]

I think I need to make it clear that, in my mind, weapons of mass destruction and exterminatus weapons aren't the same thing. The former take out cities, the latter take out planets.

 Most of the Taus current arsenal is more precise scalples than blunt world killers.  And as Ive listed in this thread,  Tau possess the technical know how to make  very effective mass drivers.  cheap ammo in the form of asteroids accelerated to hyper velocities  could pulverise a entire planet, provided a large enough asteroid is used as the kill vehicle.   As Dan Lee made clear, Exterminatus weapons are a class of weapon more terrible than the common garden variety of wmd.

A warship or fleet may be able to hang in orbit and bombard a planet with its "conventional" weapons, and each shot may level entire city blocks, but that does not constitute an exterminatus.

Not at first,  but if you were to ask the former citizens of Nastromo what they though of the Night Lords bombardment of the surface by means of every lance weapon available to the 8th legion.  The resulting assault cut through the adamantium crust of the planet till the core exploded.  Would they be able to tell the difference between  " conventional vs exterminatus " weapons?   one may take longer and more effort but  the result is the same.

Arco cannon: long range doesn't necessarily equal high rate of fire. It could indicate a very low rate of fire as it takes a long time to build up its charge. Despite it's impressive range, ultimately it only kills a handful of humans per shot (in DoW Astartes could even withstand a direct hit), so it's nowhere near an exterminatus or even a wmd.

It may not have a high rate of fire,but id put my money on the Foe cast to get it to fire faster or give it a contstant streaming.  with that effect cleansing the board would be like coloring in a map with a pen.   stay in the lines and make sure to color in the whole surface.
I also though the Arco cannon lacked all out killing power. In game I liked using it but i though it left too much alive after every shot.  I reasoned that the weapon was calibrated to not totally sterilize all life forms  from the target zone.  Its not unreasonable to speculate that the Arco could be calibrated to kill all life in the target zone. Soil, bacteria, even little dogs.   

The Tau may well face situations where an exterminatus is necessary, but I don't think they do it because 1) they have far less worlds to loose than the Imperium, 2) I've never seen it mentioned in the fluff that I've read, 3) I see the Tau as being relatively naive. The Imperium kills xenos because the Emperor, in his infinite wisdom, told humanity not to trust aliens and to mercilessly eliminate all threats. The Tau see enemies as potential allies (vassals) and so may well decide to send in  more water caste ambassadors rather than more fire warriors.


I dont think The Aun would kill one of their major septs.  Well not with out really dire reasons.   As for many of the conquered  human worlds may not enjoy the same level of protection of importance as the core worlds and thus easier to allow them to be sacrificed to the greater good.
If your looking for a justification as to why they do anything, just look at Taus catch all phrase,  The Greater Good,  It is pithy but its a solid philosophy that supports many dark deeds if it can be justified for the good of the empire. They may not like what they see in the mirror some days but thats a price to pay when running a empire.    I think they have what it takes to do the dirty deeds for the right reasons ( well their right reasons ) 

[Dan_Lee]

I'd rather not get into the whole mass driver asteroid debate. I don't think it's that feasible. Did you ever read the "Asteroids aren't cheap" article (I believe in WD) where they explained why the Imperium don't use Asteroids for Exterminatus. It's true the Tau may have better mass driver technology, and they wouldn't spend several weeks blessing the asteroid. But overall I don't think it's as straight forward as you make out.

Nastromo was very much a special case. Most planets don't have an adamantium crust, and heating up the core of a planet, which is already probably hotter than a lance shot anyway, wouldn't cause the planet to explode. Nastromo's crust was cracked from when the Night Lord's pod crashed into the planet (which is what the 8th Legion aimed at), and for some reason the planets core was explosive (why did anyone ever choose to colonize and explosive planet?). On any other planet, conventional weapons would have to kill the planet one blast radius at a time, expending ridiculous amounts of ammo, and giving the occupants of the planet time to escape the destruction. It would be mass-murder but not exterminatus.

If improving the Arco cannon was simply a matter of wanting it to be better, why doesn't someone just take a normal ship lance battery and "just" up the range, damage per shot, and fire rate so they can use that to kill whatever they want? In reality (or even in a semi-reasonable fictional universe) you have to make compromises when you design a weapon. Even if it could wipe out a planet by "colouring-in", unless it does it incredibly quickly anything that can move is just going to avoid the beam.

You have a point that the Tau wouldn't care so much about conquered worlds. And they probably would be willing to do terrible things for "the greater good". If we are considering DoW fluff, then if you win the Dark Crusade with the Tau they put all the humans in to single sex concentration camps and essentially wipe out the entire population anyway, so they obviously don't really care about other races.

I hope you aren't taking the things I say too personally Kelsik. We obviously have differing views on this but I'm enjoying the exchange.

[Kelsik]

I'm not taking this personnaly other than that I like the topic and I have enjoyed the debate.  Speaking of which,  I think we've made all the speaking points of relevance.   There are more things to look at that such as,   what is the primary fuel the Tau use in their ships, vehicles, power plants ect.     Multiple sources or just one type of fuel?. 

[Dan_Lee]

Glad you're enjoying it too.

The only thing I can think of regarding fuel is that the Tau make use of pulse rifles which I believe are plasma based, so I guess it would make sense for them to use plasma reactors. I haven't seen their power or fuel sources mentioned anywhere though.

[AndrewChristlieb]

The Sho'aun'or'es Generator, as described in both Kill Team and Fire Warrior.

In appearance, starship-grade generators are enormous, hollowed out "stacks" containing a turbulent liquid-gaseous substance with floating particles of light and energy inside (similar in description and function to a green-colored tokamok generator).

In practice, it's a safe and effectively unlimited power supply used in almost all Tau technology that requires electrical energy to function; ranging from starships to Hammerheads to Crisis Suits to Drones to Line Warrior backpack-mounted powercell-chargers. The Sho'aun'or'es requires no described recharging (though it's likely it only needs its fuel replenished every 10+ years if it is indeed a Fusion Reactor), and is only limited by its maximum power output at any one time.

Shamelessly stolen from forums.tauonline.org

[Kelsik]

Shamful or not, that was a good discription as any for the power generators,  Id be interested in knowing what the fuel was.  Exa,  Plutomioum, Un-obtainium, non-existium. 

Another tech question ive batted around is the ship mounted prow deflector.  Im fairly sure its  based on gravitic manipulation,  same as thier prime star drive.  Im taking my source from Armada, and the original fleet release in BFG mags.   
Also in the old releases,  Tau primary means to launch missles from a weapon termed, "Spine Gun".   This is basicly a very similar to the magnetic rail gun however  a spine gun uses gravitic (gravity) pules to speed the ordanance up to launch velocity.

Coffees done,  got to get back to work.

[Sigoroth]

Shamful or not, that was a good discription as any for the power generators,  Id be interested in knowing what the fuel was.  Exa,  Plutomioum, Un-obtainium, non-existium. 

Nah, it's Narrativium.

[Kelsik]

Shamful or not, that was a good discription as any for the power generators,  Id be interested in knowing what the fuel was.  Exa,  Plutomioum, Un-obtainium, non-existium. 

Nah, it's Narrativium.

possibly Un-explainium?

[Sigoroth]

possibly Un-explainium?

Assuredly it is plotium deviceatrate.

[lastspartacus]

Since I just got a SG tau fleet, and have a tau fluff thread open.  How the HELL is a Merchant starting at 4 points?  That thing is almost the size of an explorer battleship!  Easily cruiser mass.

[Sigoroth]

Since I just got a SG tau fleet, and have a tau fluff thread open.  How the HELL is a Merchant starting at 4 points?  That thing is almost the size of an explorer battleship!  Easily cruiser mass.

This has been a bone of contention for a long time. The standard line was that it was a Merchant vessel, not a warship, therefore it wasn't reinforced properly. The argument led to the option of +2 hits being added for +15 pts. Presumably the rationale being that they did get retrofitted for military use. However, this whole line seems to me to justify it starting at 6 hit points, with a possible upgrade to 8. When you consider that heavy transports have 6 hits and they're smaller than Tau Merchants and just as non-military in function then it really is hard to justify 4 hits. I always pay the upgrade to 6 hits and consider this as their minimum.

[AndrewChristlieb]

Hollow ship, less durable.