September 11, 2024, 06:10:26 PM

Author Topic: Guidelines When Tweaking  (Read 3854 times)

Offline lastspartacus

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Guidelines When Tweaking
« on: September 07, 2011, 11:56:43 AM »
There has been a lot of house ruling going on lately, and I just wanted to make sure we all engage responsibly in the fun.
I thought it would be an interesting thought experement to flesh out what really makes each fleet unique, and hold it as sancrosanct beyond single scenario instances and fun goofyness.  I'm referring to things that capture the feel of the fleet through its pros and cons, that make up the soul of playing that faction, at least in generalization, like armored prows and torpedoes for Imperials or manouverability for Eldar.

So let us compile and discuss what no game tester or house-ruler should aim for, to give better purpose to future attempts.  Who knows, maybe it would make a good warp rift article.  Help me if I forget a fleet.

Imperium- Armored prows.  Gold standard average firepower.  Excellent torpedo options.

Chaos-  Above average speed.  Long ranged firepower.  Above average density of firepower.  Good attack craft options.

Orks- Armored prows.  Weak rear armor.  Low shields.  Low leadership.  High hull points.  Poor maneuverability.  Free all ahead full.
Good at boarding.  Strongest firepower in prow.  Poor long range firepower.

Tau Korvattra- Excellent AC options.  Comparatively weak capital ship options.  Cheap, capital ship reliant escorts.  Port and starboard weapons able to fire from prow.  Guided, variable speed torpedoes.  Ability to fire more accurately at longer ranges.  Poor at boarding.

Tau Kororvesh- Average speed, high maneuverability.  Port and starboard weapons able to fire from prow.  Powerful prow firepower density.
Good AC and torpedo options.  Ability to fire more accurately at longer ranges.  Lower hull points than ships of comparable class.  Guided, variable speed torpedoes.  Cheap, capital ship reliant escorts.

Space Marines- Heavily armored.  Strong close range firepower, weak long range.  Good at boarding.  Gunnery based lance-like weapon.
No dedicated, unlimited cruiser options.  Durable, multipurpose attack craft.

Eldar- Star-edge speed dependent.  Very fast, excellent maneuverability.  Lower hull points than ships of comparable class.  Very powerful close range weapons.  Holofields make them harder to hit.

Dark Eldar-  Torpedoes that reduce target speed.  Mimic engines that allow pre-first turn move.  See Eldar.

Necrons-  Heavily armored.  No shields.  Extremely fast.  Extremely powerful close and medium range weaponry.  Few in number.

Tyranids-  Very cheap escorts.  Powerful close range options, weak at long range.  Excellent at boarding.  Slow speed.  Dependent on hive mind influence of hiveships.  Evolution upgrades.


(and I guess)

Adeptus Mechanicus- Many nova cannon options. No battlecruisers.  Long ranged dorsal lance on all cruisers.  Lots of ship upgrade options.

Rogue Traders- I don't know, average Imperial options and lots of xenos allies?

Demiurg- 360 torpedoes.  Hull point based leadership.  Short ranged cutting beam lance powered by blast markers.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 09:48:34 PM by lastspartacus »

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2011, 06:14:06 PM »
Ok, I'll kick it off for a couple of fleets:

Chaos - no CLs

Space Marines - no lances

Orks - no tactics


Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2011, 10:53:36 PM »
Tried my hand at some of it, in a rushed way.  The idea is that these sets up things should provide the core of the fleet, whatever fleet you end up with.  I tried to only focus on the absolute essentials, but any input is appreciated.

Offline Zhukov

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 04:00:32 AM »

Amending your original post to include:

Dark Eldar- Impaler Assault Modules

Rogue Traders- Lots of ally options. Xenos tech options and crew skills available to every ship in fleet.
I am Zukov's Klaw.

"Oh mah gawd its like a giant veil was just lifted off my face and the beautiful maiden before my eyes just turned into a hideous Ork with a giant, bloody choppa."

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 04:04:19 AM »
Oh, of course, missed that.  What is dark eldar without the Impaler? :)

Offline Zhukov

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 04:11:10 AM »

Especially since the cruisers can get two now! Mwahahahahaha :)
I am Zukov's Klaw.

"Oh mah gawd its like a giant veil was just lifted off my face and the beautiful maiden before my eyes just turned into a hideous Ork with a giant, bloody choppa."

Offline TheMaster42

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2011, 08:02:01 AM »
Imperium: Nova Cannons!

Chaos: Marks of Khorne/Nurgle/Slanesh/Tzeentch.  Daemonships.

Orks: Random-strength weapons.  Multi-role AC.  Lots of refit options.

Corsair Eldar: Less firepower and more expensive ships compared to other races.  (Trying to make up for MSM?)

Tau/Tau: 6+ Deflectors (some ships).  Durable bombers.

Necrons: 6+ armor AND save.  No Ordnance.  S***-on-Eldar weapons.  Under-costed ships by comparison.  Automatic disengages; triple victory points for lost ships.  Crazy All-Ahead Full.

Tyranids: Customizable ships! Maybe say, "Instinctive Behavior" instead of, "Dependent on hive mind influence of hiveships," since some fleets operate without hiveships.  Also, evolutions aren't necessarily allowed in all matches; I wouldn't say they're more core to the design of the fleet than Imperial refits are.  Double ordnance.  Slow ordnance.  No bombers, no non-boarding torps. Spore Cysts. Claws/Feeder tentacles.  Incredible at boarding.

Adeptus Mechanics: Fleet turrets.  Refits!


I would also just summarize each fleet's typical armor layout:

Imperial: 6+/5+.  Some 5+.
Chaos: 5+.
Ork: 6+/5+/4+.
Tau: 5+. Some 6+/5+.  Some 5+/4+.
Space marines: 6+.
Eldar: 4+, holofields.
Necrons: 6+, 4+ save.
Tyranids: 5+.  Some 6+. Some 4+.

Offline Zelnik

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2011, 09:56:54 AM »
Lets not forget average ranges!


Imperial Navy: 30cm-45cm average (examples of higher)
Chaos: 45-60cm average (examples of lower)
Orks:30-45cm average (examples of lower)
Eldar: 30cm flat (one example of higher)
Tau:30-45 (leaning towards 45)
Craftworld Eldar:30 flat
Dark Eldar: 30 flat.
Tyranids 30-45 (with examples of lower)
Admech: 45-60 (with examples of higher and lower)
necrons: 30-45
Space marines 30 flat (with examples of higher)
Demiurg 30-45 (with examples of lower)
Diasporex: 30-45 (with examples of higher and lower)



Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2011, 10:46:44 AM »
Well I was only trying for the most important things.  Ya'll think stuff like no ordnance for Necrons and 30cm range for Eldar are iconic enough not to break?

Speaking of ranges, are IN and Chaos the only fleets in which it is normal to have 60cm weaponry?  With advanced races like Necrons and Eldar around, that surprises me.

Offline TheMaster42

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2011, 10:22:42 PM »
Just adding my 2c in there.

But yeah, I think if you made a Necron carrier that would be weird enough to say, "no that's not really Necron in flavor."  Plus you'd have to decide speeds and availability for all of them, as well, with no support from the source material.


For Corsair Eldar there's precedence for 45cm, so I don't think it's a deal-breaker.  But if you made a whole line of ships with 45cm batteries it'd be weird.


Zelnik on your ranges list, Heavy Gunz are kinda iconic.  Maybe list it as, "Orks: 30-45cm average.  15cm Heavy Gunz." or something like that.

Maybe add detail by weapon type as well.  Tau capitals all have 45cm batteries but 30cm lances.  Tyranids have 15cm bio-plasma. Etc, etc.

Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2011, 11:15:43 AM »
Ah forgot about bio-plasma, thats iconic.  And perhaps burning weapon rounds, but I'm not so sure.

As to Necron ordnance, they had it in their previous incarnation in BFG, in the form of scarab swarms, fyi.

Offline horizon

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2011, 11:38:17 AM »
Would add:
Imperial Navy : Nova Cannon is unique selling point.

Quote
Tau Kor'vattra- Comparatively weak capital ship options.
We have Explorer = 12 hits / 5+  4+[rear] armour / 8 launch bays = not weak
Hero = same durability as a Lunar but with extra turret plus AC. = not weak
Merchant without upgrade = weak

So I would remove the 'weak' remark.



Offline lastspartacus

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 12:03:03 PM »
Well when I said 'weak' what I meant only in the area of firepower, and perhaps shielding.

Nova could be added.  You can have a solid imperial list without novas, but I do suppose it bears mentioning that no other fleet should ever have it.

Offline TheMaster42

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Re: Guidelines When Tweaking
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 09:47:32 PM »
When someone says, "Weak Tau capital ships" I agreed, interpreting it as, "Explorer is only 230 points so no high-point-cost battleship."

But the Explorer and Hero are absolutely amazing, under-costed ships, so the 'weak' descriptor might use some clarifying, yeah.


I would definitely add Nova Cannons to Imperial and AdMech.