September 14, 2024, 06:26:11 AM

Author Topic: Fleet for tournament  (Read 17628 times)

Offline Ghuda

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2011, 06:26:43 PM »
I have not yet played the battle against the imperials. :(

@andrew: I think the took the dictator as a reserve. Don't you need three cruisers from the bakka list to do this or is two cruisers and a battle cruiser also enough?

I like your ideas. Do you think I should split up my fleet and try to lure him to one side of the table? Or should I keep my fleet together and just target the dominators in my first attack run?

@horizon: I haven't played the battle yet and therefore I'm still interested in your opinion ;)


Offline horizon

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2011, 07:05:01 PM »
75pts is the correct one for MMS v1.9.

I played vs mms Hellebores in a small Corsair fleet = good asset.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2011, 12:36:11 AM »
If you really wanted to be a jerk the rules state one for 3 cruisers but id allow a battlecruiser to count.  You could try to bring a group of your escorts around the side most people overlook them and focus on the bb and cruisers.  I doubt he would split his fleet tho Imps work best when clumped togather.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2011, 03:29:27 AM »
As far as reserves rules are concerned grand cruisers, battle cruisers, heavy cruisers and light cruisers all count as 'cruisers'.

Offline Ghuda

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2011, 11:51:38 PM »
It has been a while. I still have not played vs the imperials (Busy with my job). We decided that we will end the tournament before the end of November with three simultaneous battles. I will play in that last battle vs imperials. So I have some time to prepare for this battle. Before the end of November I'll have to fight tau, tyranids and necrons. I will play vs necrons next week.

His list:

500pt - Cairn Class Tombship
275pt - Scythe Class Harvest Ship
275pt - Scythe Class Harvest Ship
155pt - Shroud Class Light Crouser
150pt - 3 Jackal Class Raiders
120pt - 3 Dirge Class Raiders
025pt - 1 extra fleet reroll

It's my idea to try to avoid the tombship and scythes as long as possible and focus my fire on the escorts and maybe the shroud. I think this is the best way to go and is all I can think of right now.

Any advice on how to fight them?

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2011, 04:51:00 AM »
The best advice I can give you for fighting Necrons is to not give up. It will seem like you're doing nothing and he's trouncing you for a lot of the fight but as the battle draws out you will eventually reach those magical thresholds (crippled/destroyed) and he'll be unable to afford to avoid to BFI. This greatly diminishes his firepower and therefore increases the value of your shields.

Apart from that, fire your WBs before your lances. If he braces against the WBs under the expectation of forthcoming lances then redirect those lances to unbraced ships. If he doesn't brace then at least your WBs will have had the greatest chance of causing damage and you can follow up with lances (which he may fail to brace against allowing for easier damage).

Spread your fire. Throw incidental shots in wherever you may. Make it hard for him to decide if it's worth bracing. Only focus fire when a ship is near a crippled/destroyed threshold. The exception being the escorts feel free to throw as much firepower into them as it takes, until they brace of course.

Your priorities should be to destroy/shutdown the escorts, then to destroy the Shroud, then to shutdown the Scythes. Try to avoid the Cairn as much as possible, don't focus fire on it, the occasional lance shot into it is fine. Focus on the rest of the fleet first.

As for manoeuvring, you'll want to put yourself behind the cruisers. If you can make him turn his ships in different directions you'll get best results, as Necrons really need to stick together. If he goes on AAF he'll typically end up getting split up due to the large variance in AAF distance. This is good. You can split your fleet in order to make him chase you and use your great speed to form up again later.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 05:21:51 AM by Sigoroth »

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2011, 03:24:45 PM »
Do everything your not supposed to. Shoot everything not just one ship, fire lances first, force him to brace as much as you can. Cover your rear! They're going to be there :D. More so than any fleet other than eldar you have to anticipate where they are going to be due to their speed so you can be ready for them.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2011, 10:30:27 PM »
Do everything your not supposed to. Shoot everything not just one ship, fire lances first, force him to brace as much as you can. Cover your rear!

Er, no, don't fire lances first, fire WBs first.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2011, 11:21:57 PM »
Against everything but necrons I'd agree sig but if you have enough lances to force him to brace your weps get a column shift but hit on a 4+ instead of 6+. Being that he's playing eldar and gets a left shift auto they just balance out.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2011, 01:19:42 AM »
Against everything but necrons I'd agree sig but if you have enough lances to force him to brace your weps get a column shift but hit on a 4+ instead of 6+. Being that he's playing eldar and gets a left shift auto they just balance out.

No, I'm talking specifically against Necrons here, not just a general rule. Fire WBs first. Even though you don't actually get a column shift for firing lances first, since Necrons don't have shields and therefore you don't place blast markers for hits, you should still fire the WBs first.

Against a braced Necron ship, regardless of type, a single non locked-on WB die has a 1/12 chance of causing a point of damage (1/2 chance of hitting, 1/6 chance of getting past brace save). This translates as 0.08 average damage. A single locked-on WB has a 1/8 chance of causing a point of damage (3/4 chance of hitting, 1/6 chance of getting past brace save). This translates as 0.13 damage. Lock-on provides a 50% increase in effectiveness. When unbraced however, the chances of causing damage differ depending upon the ship's base save.

Against a 4+ base save, ie Tombships, the chance of causing damage with a non locked-on WB die is the same as against a braced ship, 1/12, or 0.08 average damage. This is because you've got a 1/6 chance of hitting and a 1/2 chance of getting past the save rather than 1/2 chance of hitting and a 1/6 chance of getting past the save, giving the same outcome. However, locking on allows you to re-roll the 1/6 chance in this case. So when locked on you have an 11/72 chance of causing damage, or 0.15 average damage. Locking-on against unbraced Necron ships provides an 83% increase in effectiveness compared to only a 50% increase vs braced Necron ships.

Against a 5+ save (Scythes, Shrouds, etc) the chance of causing a hit with any one die is 1/6 x 2/3 = 1/9, or an average damage of 0.11.This is better than when braced. It is better still when locked-on, due to the 83% increase in effectiveness.

Against a 6+ save (escorts) the chance of causing a hit with any one die is 1/6 x 5/6 = 5/36, or an average of 0.14 damage. Again locking on is +83% firepower rather than +50%.

So firing against an unbraced Necron ship is better than firing against a braced one, particularly when on LO.



Now, this isn't the only factor to account for of course. When you're firing against a Necron ship that is already braced, in order to do that last point of damage to cripple/destroy it for example, it is better to use WBs. Lances gain nothing when the Necron ship is braced, whereas WBs do triple their base chance to hit. So if you have to shoot at a braced Necron ship, WBs are what you should use.

Also, you should be trying to force him to brace. This is because it is fairly easy to force a lot of Necron ships to brace (due to lack of shields) and to prevent the use of AAF, LO and his special weapons. Halving his firepower also greatly helps increase your survivability.

Now, given all of this it is much better to fire your WBs first. If your opponent braces against your WBs, with the expectation of lances to follow, then your WBs have lost a little effectiveness but you've forced your opponent to brace with only your WBs. Now simply redirect your lances to another Necron ship. This will maximise your forced-brace opportunities. However, if he does not brace, waiting for you to commit your lances, then you will at least maximise your WB damage while maintaining focus on the one ship (therefore increasing your chances of reaching a damage threshold). If you fired your lances first and he braced then your WBs will do less damage to that target. If you redirect your WBs elsewhere then they are not as much of a threat and are easier to ignore (ie, decide to not brace against). This will mean that you'll maximise your WB firepower, but not at the same target and you'll have minimised your potential for forced-braces.

In short, fire WBs first.

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2011, 01:58:25 AM »
Ok 30 hours of work on 4 hours of sleep and a red bull = I don't get it :P. All I know is I've found it best to get them to brace then hit them with my weapons batteries to damage. Now this is just going off of my experiences playing tho.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Sigoroth

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2011, 04:25:08 AM »
Ok 30 hours of work on 4 hours of sleep and a red bull = I don't get it :P. All I know is I've found it best to get them to brace then hit them with my weapons batteries to damage. Now this is just going off of my experiences playing tho.

It's not too difficult. Hitting them with WBs first maximises your chances of crippling/destroying your target and maximises your forced-brace opportunities.

Offline horizon

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2011, 05:23:24 PM »
Psychology. Sigoroth is right on every aspect regarding Necrons.

Many players have been misled by that old Tactica from SG/fanatic magazine (or other bfg magazine).

Offline AndrewChristlieb

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2011, 06:13:10 PM »
Hum I think the first time I saw that was warp rift... At any rate your probably right about it being psycho. Getting a lot of hits that do nothing feels better than not getting very many hits that... Also pretty much do nothing :P.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline horizon

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Re: Fleet for tournament
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2011, 06:53:05 PM »
Against the Tobmship it won't matter at all.