What is the correct way to use IN against chaos?

[horizon]

I'm not even going to mention daemon ships...

lol, daemonships are crappy. Pity, cool concept. But they are waste of points.

[Zelnik]

I agree with horizon


If there are any points you should strive for the most: keep your fleet together and squadron up.

Here is an example fleet.

2x overlords with targetting matrix ld8 commander
2x lunar cruisers
2x dictators
1xgothic

The gothic always is alone and functions as a hammer and wildcard. 

The others stick with their sister ships at all times.

[Dan_Lee]

I've found that whenever I faced a daemon ship (I've only ever faced one at once as my opponent only ever limits himself to one) it's been indestructible and caused me lots of damage.

They just phase in directly behind my fleet where I can't get them and then shoot me in the rear. If I ever get into a position to damage it it just phases out again.

[RCgothic]

Tips to negate chaos long-range:

#1. With AAF you can close from >60cm to <30cm in one turn of movement, and be certain of hitting with every torpedo. You should manoeuvre to just outside 60cm to set this up. To stop you getting the first shot off, he will be forced to close with you. So you're looking at a max of one turn of unopposed fire.

#2. Screen his shots. Have a squadron of cruisers lead the way, and try and make it so that some of his ships will be closer to one than the other.  He'll be forced to target both of them, which will waste firepower against shields, and he'll be very unlikely to cripple them. If he wants to shoot anything else, that's a leadership check, and assuming a ld of 8 he'll fail just under 30%, taking the heat off your more valuable ships.

#3. Wasting firepower on your battleship is good. To cripple a healthy Emperor before you get into torpedo range will take an average of 32 long range lances, assuming 30% of shots are unintentionally directed at other vessels and the Emperor braces after losing its shields. Even Chaos doesn't have anything like that kind of one-turn firepower, and certainly not at long range. Put it close behind the screening cruisers to positively encourage him to shoot it.

If you follow the above tips, the majority of his firepower will bounce off your most heavily protected vessel, and what's left will dissipate harmlessly off the shields of your screening cruisers. In the following turn your Emperor can take up a more defensive posture, and your main line will be in position to gut the centre of his fleet. Now enjoy watching the heretics burn.

[Sigoroth]

I've found that whenever I faced a daemon ship (I've only ever faced one at once as my opponent only ever limits himself to one) it's been indestructible and caused me lots of damage.

They just phase in directly behind my fleet where I can't get them and then shoot me in the rear. If I ever get into a position to damage it it just phases out again.

Put an escort squadron of at least 2 on CTNH, turn them around and keep one parked in base contact with the demon ship at all times. It'll never phase in.

[Trickstick]

Well I had a game today and managed to not die horribly! I didn't end up doing much damage though but that was probably down to most of my ships having LD6 and not managing to reload. I seemed to do more damage with mine fields than anything else. I used an overlord by itself and I agree that it needs a partner. Disruptive torpedoes seemed to work well. However, I shot a fair amount of fire into a slaughter and did little more than tickle the shields. I suppose the IN really need that <15cm shift to do damage. 2 lunars, a dominator, dictator, overlord and 4 bombers did zero damage. They should have locked on but the lowe LD didn't help.

[Caine-HoA]

If 5 ships did only 2 dmg (shields) you were simply unlucky with the dice in that turn i guess.

[Trickstick]

I had a few things go against me that game. Such as when his double refitted carnage class put out a fire with only one hit left. That vexed me greatly.

[Zelnik]

Remember, focus your fire on ships of high value. You need to knock the pegs out from under him if you want the whole to collapse.

[Phthisis]

Don't feel bad, Trickstick.  The dice can really screw you in this game, no matter how good you are. Rolling up bad leadership can really tie your hands behind your back.  You probably had the game lost before you deployed.  IN really needs to AAF to close with Chaos, and even then ordnance is the IN's strength.  You need to be able to RO constantly, AAF to ram and you probably won't do much with gunnery if you can't LO.  Bad Ld also means you can't BFI to save yourself from the torrent of fire you'll be facing.   If the Chaos fleet had higher Ld, then they could out manuver and out fight you.  What are you to do?  It was against you from the beginning.

You should see if your opponent will agree to use our experimental rules.  You may find them more fun and you'll definately find the game more balanced.   

[Vaaish]

Yeah, doing only damage to shields is a pretty poor showing for that many ships. Statistically, the two lunars alone should have been enough to take down the shields with just their lances not to mention the addition on the lances from the overlord. It does sound like you did some damage that game if you got a carnage to one hit. THat would be a good target to send bombers into or use some of your lances on. If he keeps it braced, the thing is as good as dead and if not you get some VP especially on an upgraded ship. Try to get him to brace his ships, they will be far less useful that way. What was the rest of his fleet like? Knowing more about what happened will help us figure out how to help you a bit more than general tactics.

Phthisis: Seriously dude, if you hate the game so much you feel compelled to post telling a guy he shouldn't even bother putting ships on the table because he already lost the game perhaps it's time to move on. I'm sure there was a lot more going on than simply rolling LD to determine the outcome. Your rules change the core dynamics of the game for ALL fleets; they do little to address balance between fleets. He asked for advice on how to deal with Chaos and the essence of what you've told him is to go change the game or don't bother playing.

[horizon]

Don't feel bad, Trickstick.  The dice can really screw you in this game, no matter how good you are. Rolling up bad leadership can really tie your hands behind your back.  You probably had the game lost before you deployed. 

lol, no he didn't lose the game at that point. He had bad gunnery, does your system change that?


What I do wonder, Trickstick: he had a refitted Carnage, you rolled bad leadership. Are you playing one off game or campaign? In a campaign you build Ld up per ship. And refitted Carnages can only exist in a campaign.
And then even later in the campaign, not at the beginning.

[Phthisis]

@Vaaish
Stop flipping out. I expect more from you.
I don't hate the game.  I'm just not a fan of the SO system.  Its my love of the game that inspired me to want to make it better.  And its my love of the game that keeps me willing to argue with you about it day after day.
You may not like what I have to say, but am I wrong?  Dice can lose you the game.  Bad Ld can screw you HARD.  I play Chaos.  I've won because I was able to LO like a champ but bad Ld prevented them from BFI.  It wass no fun.  Random Ld and Ld tests on the front end may be 'realistic' but it puts control of the game firmly in the hands of the dice.  Im offering an alternative for players who want a game based more on strategy than luck.  Who are you to tell people they have to.play BFG how you want them to play?  I just suggested our rule changes as an alternative to playing games like this.

Look at all the advice given to Trickstick.  Every strategy revolves around using SO.  AAF the whole fleet.  Torpedos and AC.  Ramming.  All require tests against his leadership scores.  If he cant pass the Ld tests, then what's he supposed to do?  Go toe to toe with Slaughters at broadsides?  That's rediculous.  He can't even BFI reliably!

If you don't think that's a problem, then give him tactics to defeat a Chaos fleet without using SO. Good luck.

Explain how changing SO disrupts game balance, but do it in my thread.  I don't think you have a leg to stand on here.  It better be good.

I'm not listening to complaints about changing core rules from the editor of an ezine that publishes changes to core rules.  Actually, once I get these written up fully I'd like to submit them to Warp Rift for publishing.

[afterimagedan]

You think he will publish it?

[Phthisis]

Sure, why not?  Vaaish may disagree with me vehemently, but he's not petty.   WR publishes alternative rules all the time.  Some rules changes they've published are more radically different than ours.  He won't let his personal opinion interfere with his integrity.

Sorry, not trying to threadjack.