What is the correct way to use IN against chaos?

[Trickstick]

So I have been playing a few games lately but have only ever won against other Imperial players, never against chaos. I don't really see what I am doing wrong. I'm not saying it is a balance problem or anything, I am just wondering if I am missing something obvious.

Chaos seem to always get first strike against me, using their superior range and speed. This usually means that my best ships either have to brace or are crippled. This seems to shift the balance of power enough that it is an uphill struggle from that point on. I have tried to use ordnance to cover my advance but it just gets shot down or ignored and does little damage.

My typical list is an apocalypse, mars, dictator, a couple of lunars and some swords.

[fracas]

Turn 1. All ahead full to close
Turn 2. Launch torpedoes and bombers (could serve as diversionary targets)
Turn 3. Reload ordnance and save for combine launch, keep the fleet together while splitting his

[Trickstick]

All ahead full first turn makes complete sense, I don't know why I never tried it. Maybe I was worried about the fleet becoming spread out or something. I assume that the nova cannons would hang back and fire at range instead.

[fracas]

Most IN cruisers have only 30cm weapons on the sides so you have to split his fleet up close
Keep your ships together

Nova cannon ships should indeed not AAF to keep firing as long as possible

[horizon]

Start playing different kind of scenarios.
Really it makes everything a lot more trickier.

[Trickstick]

We are actually running a campaign with Imperial (me), Inquisition and two chaos. So far the chaos have won everything. In my last fight it didn't help that I had to endure a meteor storm, which killed 3/5 of my escorts, collapsed a dictator's shields, took one of my novas out and gave a ship engine room damage. On top of all that I was against a 5 shield planet killer in a planetary assault. It was a lot of fun though. I am really enjoying all of the scenarios and random sub plots.

[Caine-HoA]

Ive to say with all my fleets (eldar, tau, sm/imp, dark eldar) and in all games ive played so far i had the biggest problems with chaos. (i didnt play mayn games (2) vs tyras though i guess they are pretty strong as well)

I think their "we dont have torpedoes but everything else twice as much as you"(range, lances, speed, cheap cruisers, cheap ordnance, assault boats, boarding modifier...) playstyle is a bit op :-D (dont take this too serious but the tendency comes close)

[RCgothic]

Imperial vessels have more firepower than Chaos vessels, and they can turn slightly tighter as they only have to move 10cm minimum as opposed to 12.5cm.

Use AAF to close from 60cm into torpedo range (picking on one, maybe 2 key vessels), then get in amongst his fleet and stay there. You need to be firing at least 2 of your 3 arcs every turn in order to match chaos firepower. Once in amongst his fleet he shouldn't be able to shake you off except by slowly outrunning you, which gives you a perfect firing solution for more torpedoes.

Torpedoes are better than NC, but if you do have them in your fleet fire at any carriers that need to make an RO check before being able to launch again.

[Trickstick]

I think that chaos cruisers can still move after 10cm, they just have to move another 2.5cm afterwards. It does mean that they will either be 2.5cm further away or a target directly behind them will be out of arc though.

[Sigoroth]

I think that chaos cruisers can still move after 10cm, they just have to move another 2.5cm afterwards. It does mean that they will either be 2.5cm further away or a target directly behind them will be out of arc though.

If you were to move your minimum distance each turn and keep turning in the one direction as soon as you're allowed (ie, after 10cm) then you will see that the distance between each of the Chaos ships turning points will be 12.5cm (move 10cm, turn, move 2.5cm, move 10cm, turn, move 2.5 cm, move 10 cm, etc) giving you a circumference of 100cm to execute a complete 360° turn. On the other hand, doing the same for the IN you would get only 10cm between each turn, for a total circumference of only 80cm. Thus the IN ships have a tighter turning circle.

[Phthisis]

Surrender.  You can't win against such an obviously OP fleet!   

To be serious, IN has a lot of advantages over Chaos!  IN ships have better armor, usually equivalent firepower up close and a tighter turn radius.  If you're willing to include an Emperor (why not? Awesome ship) you can easily gain AC superiority.  Torpedos do way more average damage than the gunnery on any chaos vessel and ramming is highly effective.

I think a lot of IN players get stuck on gunnery and so fail to leverage of the many advantages of the IN fleet.  You wouldn't try to board tyranids or ram orks or win an ordnance war with tau.  Why try to fight chaos using only gunnery?

Fighting Chaos with IN is easy.  Keep your prow armor facing them.  AAF first turn to close the distance.  Chaos ships normally have to turn broadsides.  Use your torpedos primarily and gunnery at targets of opportunity.  Ram when you have the chance.  Nova cannons should hang far back and fire last, targets with shields down are optimal.  IN can get a far higher damage output than any Chaos fleet this way while maintaining better defense the whole game.

[Trickstick]

I had not considered that it would be more effective to fire nova cannons last. It seems so obvious now. I always fired them first.

I always seem to be half dead by the time I reach the enemy. I suppose by using AAF, and the closer use of torpedoes, this could change though. I am looking forward to giving it a try. Also, I do not have an emperor. My launch bays are on a mars and two dictators. I have been looking forward to trying the 2 dictator squdron tactic. I may combine it with three lance dauntless I am about to receive for a fast strike force. I like how both of them lose very little firepower on special orders. Moving ordnance through blast markers isn't great but those are the risks you take.

Just for the sake of completeness, these are the ships I own and their names:

Battlefleet Halcyon

Fleet-Admiral - Fürtlinger

Apocalypse - Saint Ekubo
Mars - Recreants' Cataclysm
Lunar - Lord Odobenus
Lunar - Sus Osculum
Dictator - Vermillion Monarch
Dictator - Fulminous Peal
Overlord - Wrath of Lupus
Dominator - Kalapani Pilgrim
Gothic -
Sword Squadron x6 (Although I mostly use 5) - Corvus

Dauntless - Alugura (In the post)
Dauntless -
Dauntless -

[fracas]

Either squadron the lunars together, and the dictator together, or go one each.

[Zelnik]

Handy tips to punk chaos with IN.

1. Never take a single overlord.  If you have one, get a second. Make sure they have the targetting matrix upgrade.  A pair of these can kill a cruiser at 60cm.

2. Squadron your cruisers.  Individually, IN cruisers are weak.  Pair them up, the whole is far greater then the sum of its parts. Lunars with lunars, dictators with dictators.

3. Prioritize your targets. Some chaos ships are designed to draw attention away from more important vessels. 

4. Keep together. Forming a phalanx wedge will make it impossible for him to attack without suffering heavily. Isolated ships are dead ships.

5. Remove their carriers, use bombers and torpedos. 5+ armor is squishy to bombers and torps. Chaos carriers are potent artillary, kill or cripple them if the opportunity arises.

6. If you see the opportunity, RAM!

7.  Never board a ship unless you have 2 cruisers doing the job, or the ship is crippled. IN are some of the worst boarding in the game. 


8. Never underestimate chaos escorts. Do not shun the iconoclast. 

9. Kill any acheron you can find.

[Dan_Lee]

As much as I love my Imperial fleet, I still get hammered every time I play Chaos.

I find that their range 45cm or better forward firing guns allow them to focus fire on a single target of their choice each turn, overwhelming that ship. In return I struggle to bring the weapons of even a few of my ships to bare. And when I do, they all have to fire on different targets because Imperial weapons are nearly always port/starboard.

Prow armour is helpful, but Chaos have access to forward firing lances, completely negating the advantage. Being abeam with armour 5+ is more or less the same as closing with armour 6+.

Torpedoes or bombers hardly ever get through, even when direct firing, as Chaos can easily get more fighters with their higher launch capacity cruisers. The emperor can only balance this out until it is forced to brace, which usually happens fairly quickly thanks to the Chaos fleets forward firing range 45cm+ guns.

I'm not even going to mention daemon ships...


Zelnik's points are all good and apply against any opponent, though most of them are easier said than done in my opinion.