September 14, 2024, 08:13:26 AM

Author Topic: Ordnance - another idea...  (Read 8955 times)

Offline Plaxor

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
  • Tyrant of BFG:Revised
    • BFG files
Re: Ordnance - another idea...
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2011, 07:43:40 AM »
Did a bunch of math related to this concept. After a little toying around with the math and charts I came up with this;

Essentially each surviving bomber rolls a D6 against the enemy vessels AV, and for each point it meets or exceeds the Armour it does one point of damage. So a bomber against AV5 would do 1 hit if it rolled a 5, and 2 if it rolled a 6. Comparing the 'best case' scenarios for the official rules (accounting for turret suppression), vs this system I made a chart;



The Red is the system I came up with, the Black, the Official system.

The nice thing is that the damage caused is modified by the AV in a similar way as official, meaning against 6+ armour the hits caused would be reduced by 33% from official, this mainly only affects Space Marines and Necrons. With the latter, this is an easy fix (reducing their inherent AC defenses appropriately), SMs.... I am unsure how this would be dealt with, 33% albeit significant, likely won't affect their win ratio. In fact it is reasonable, as their short range means they would have trouble against the 'lurker with AC' type player.

Against AV4+ it would be 2x the number of hits, which is a little more than the 1.5x, but this only really affects Orks, and with the improved turret values they fare a bit better.

It completely removes the 'double-affect' of turrets, and makes bombers fairly consistent. Doing what we wanted them to do all along, fewer hits vs. low turret things, and more vs. high turret things. Quite possibly the best thing, is that the damage roughly remains the same for the most common number of turrets (2).

Now I know that someone will complain about the lack of need for 'Fighters Escorting Bombers'. However this is quite easily done. Turret suppression isn't the primary function of fighters in any Naval Combat. Their primary function is escorting bombers. Bringing up an older concept, you could easily implement the rule that fighters will only ever destroy 1 fighter (or 1 AC marker in a wave containing fighters), but they will destroy every AC marker in a wave with no fighters.

For Fighta-Bommaz you would simply use the rule that they do not cause multiple hits for their attack runs. So against AV5 they would cause 1 hit on a 5 or 6, instead of 2 on a 6. Reducing their efficacy there by 33%. As the Fighter Escorting AB thing would be wonky, you would simply make the Orks have Fighta-Boats, with speed 25. Possibly you would make the Ork ordnance only remove 1 enemy marker, rather than the whole wave (but always remove at least 1).

Resilient non-fighter AC would save for only 1 marker to be destroyed rather than the whole wave when a fighter comes around.

@Pthisis, Eldar would never re-roll their damage! They have never done this, the only benefit they get is that they are hit by turrets on a 6+ rather than 4+. Which increases their efficacy here perfectly fine.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 08:12:25 AM by Plaxor »

Offline AndrewChristlieb

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1651
Re: Ordnance - another idea...
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2011, 01:03:11 PM »
A lot.

The biggest complain about the current rules is how fighters add to waves vs battleships. That it is too strong. The small change balances it.

Now all fighters add. Even if destroyed. So vs Emperor: 3 bombers + 5 fighters = always 3 bombers left + 5 attacks. Max~, at least 5.

If only surviving fighters the +5 is reduced to / +3 or +2 on average.


The maximum +1's you can gain from fighters is equal to the Number of bombers in the wave. Against an Emperor 3 bombers + 5 fighters = always 3 bombers left +3 attacks for a MAX # of 6 dice to attack. The only way to get 6 dice to attack is by rolling 6's on the bomber runs also. Your more likely than not going to only have those 3 to hit dice that the fighters give you.

Your better off attacking with 4/4 as its unlikey that the emperor will hit with all 5 turrets, and you can take advantage of all of the fighter markers bonuses plus theres a higher chance of the bombers adding some dice to hit.

Quote
Did a bunch of math related to this concept. After a little toying around with the math and charts I came up with this;


I cant see the chart
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down.

Offline Vaaish

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 986
    • Digital Equinox
Re: Ordnance - another idea...
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2011, 04:01:31 PM »
Quote
I don't think it is that complicated. Not so complicated that it would make things too confusing for the game. You just have to put a counter on it that it has attacked, then try to get them back to the carriers. Fighters can also now attack them on the way back. Of course this would be a better for a ruleset that has limited number of ordnance per carrierone can put in play.

No, it's not that complicated, which isn't what I said. I said more complicated than NEEDED. In other words, it's an element that doesn't really add much but increases the complexity of the system. Stuff like that tends to get cut when you are trying to streamline a ruleset.
-Vaaish

Offline Plaxor

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
  • Tyrant of BFG:Revised
    • BFG files
Re: Ordnance - another idea...
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2011, 04:41:12 AM »
Did more math to do a bell curve comparing the official system vs the proposed. It is the percentage likelihood of 4 bombers doing an amount of damage vs. AV5, not accounting for deaths by turrets (though it does account for turret reduction)



As you can see it very nicely follows the official amount for 2 turrets.

Offline Thinking Stone

  • Active Member
  • *
  • Posts: 166
    • Loc: The Great South Land of the Holy Spirit
Re: Ordnance - another idea...
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2012, 10:13:48 PM »
Hello everyone, sorry for not replying for a while... life has been busy!
Also, unfortunately, Plaxor's charts are still invisible for me :(.

It is interesting how this thread has morphed into an ordnance versus ship thread from an ordnance versus ordnance thread! Before letting my brilliant adaptation of Horizon's idea fade into the background, does anyone have any thoughts about it? (See Reply #9 for the rules; I'd rather not clutter by re-posting it:) ). I think that they are quite balanced and follow the general trends of thought, but please shatter my illusion if you think there are problems. At least then I will be able to use them at home playing against myself....

Interesting ideas by Plaxor and AndrewChristlieb, too, although this
Now I know that someone will complain about the lack of need for 'Fighters Escorting Bombers'. However this is quite easily done. Turret suppression isn't the primary function of fighters in any Naval Combat. Their primary function is escorting bombers. Bringing up an older concept, you could easily implement the rule that fighters will only ever destroy 1 fighter (or 1 AC marker in a wave containing fighters), but they will destroy every AC marker in a wave with no fighters.

Resilient non-fighter AC would save for only 1 marker to be destroyed rather than the whole wave when a fighter comes around.
will conflict with my rules.

So, is there some sort of consensus on ship-attack craft interactions? Should we have a vote or more discussion? I agree that this is one area that could benefit from our attention, even if the result is vastly simplified.
Thinking Stone.